The Trading Tribe
Ed Seykota's FAQ
Home | Send Mail to FAQ | Resources | Ground Rules | FAQ Index

Govopoly in the News

Contributors Say Ed Says
Jan 31, 2015


Dear Ed,

I wonder what your experience tells you about the changes in insight and behavior that often result from Breathwork.

In my recent experience I not only feel profound grief at the loss of my husband five years ago, but I also face and actually visualize my own death, or rather my passing over to some unknown place. I feel peace, acceptance (after going through sadness and fear). I feel brave.

Now, one week later, I feel an extraordinary hunger for experiences. I feel almost no fear of emotional risk or vulnerability, just a desire to value every minute and whatever I am doing during that minute. I see other people as incredibly sweet and human, all of us just muddling through as best we can.

Drama has virtually disappeared from my life.

Thank you for what sounds like a warning of the possibility that these feelings will fade and that I will slip back into the complacent belief that I have plenty of time.

Thank you for sharing your process and for raising this issue.

Breathwork acts to deplete systemic CO2 levels, resulting in mild alkalosis and vasoconstriction of the cerebral cortex.

This tends to put the "ego state" to sleep, allowing the subconscious to come out and play.

Breathers typically report facility in experiencing feelings normally under heavy inhibition by the ego.

Grof and others claim this process has a "holotropic" property - that the subconscious mind automatically seeks wholeness.

In the Tribe version of Breathwork, we supplement the process with techniques for moving through painful experiences and for focusing on specific issues.

We also support sharing and integration of new insights.
Jan 31, 2015

Playback Theatre

Greeting Chief Ed,

Playback Theatre is a form of Improv.

I currently believe many who read FAQ may find it very interesting.

I have direct experience with it. I experience with it as both a receiver and a sender.

I notice this form of Improv shares some characteristics of the Rocks process, and vice-versa.

Here are some links:

Kind Regards,

Thank you for sending me the links.

In Tribe we also use role playing as part of the Rocks Process.

In our version, we locate the critical event through encouraging forms.

We also formalize the process of fore-giving rocks to their donors, making space for new response patterns.

We generally make sure to "close" the client before the session ends - by letting him cool off and by testing for new responses.

Otherwise, if you heat someone up and send him home in that condition, he may try to resolve his feelings by "acting out" his drama in the next convenient situation.
Jan 30, 2015

From Control to Intimacy



I feel warmth in my chest and notice my eyes weeping as I read the accounts from the PR Tribe's first meeting. I feel a sense of deep gratitude and connection to my fellow tribe members. I feel supported in process and in this forum.

Thank you.

Field Update:

One week ago I gave back my manipulation rock.

I've been working on Non-verbal communication since.

Fore-giving the manipulation/ likeability rock made deep emotional connections with immediate impact, but I'm finding that it's not enough to just give back the rock – there is more work to do.


Smiling all the time to appear happy and likable naturally waned with the fore-giving - but I still have to keep an eye on it - it's a bad habit.

After my Tribe experience I found my face naturally relaxing. This feels really good, getting rid of the tension in my face muscles. I rub on my face and try to get deep into relaxing. I look in the mirror to check - my instant reaction is to smile.

Now who am I trying to con?

I relax my face again - my shoulders in turn relax. At first I think that I look sad. Maybe I am. I decide that I have every right to look and be sad. If that's how it is then I'm OK with it – it's better than pretending to be smiling and happy – I reflect on how unfair my fake smile is to others and myself. I relive giving the shell back, and the feelings of that moment. I feel a sense of regret for carrying this weight around for so long, however this doesn't last long and morphs into a warm feeling that I'm finally dealing with this. A couple of days later I stop thinking that I look sad, just more neutral and relaxed.

OK – time to street test this.

I go to the supermarket.


"Good morning"

"Good morning"

No smile – I'm doing pretty good.

As I approach the supermarket there are a lot of people and I feel my shoulders starting to rise up – consciously relax my face and shoulders go down. I realize that I definitely have some social anxiety, especially around other men - makes sense.

Around the isles and I'm doing good, I feel the urge to smile but refrain. Then some guy pushes his cart around the corner and smiles at me. I smile back – f--k – more practice needed.

Summary (tldr): Even with the challenges of learning and implementing proactive behavior I feel a newfound sense of wellbeing. I feel more authentic, relaxed, and more comfortable in my skin.

Also working on verbal and written communications – will update as they come into focus.

Thank you for sharing your process.
Jan 30, 2015


Hi Ed,

I plan to start a business venture. I start to feel a nervousness but also excitement. I pace around a lot while talking and even after talking with a friend about my plan. Then today another friend who would be involved in this venture calls me during lunch. This morning I text a couple of would be associates about my plan. I feel a tightness in my jaw and some grinding of the teeth. I take this as nervousness. I think this can be the break that I wish for. However, I think about the issues that I fail to work on at the Workshop and feel a bit apprehensive.

I read on FAQ that you may hold a seminar in Asia if enough people show interest. I am interested to attend a potential seminar.

I look forward to any comments you may have.

Thanks for listening,

Good luck to you and the other PRTT members!

- - -

I sit in a chair and clatter my teeth. I shake my right foot. I find myself tapping my head with my middle finger.

Thank you for sharing your process and for supporting the Puerto Rico Tribe.
Jan 29, 2015

Speaking in Seattle

Hello Ed,

I read FAQ's and see you will speak in Seattle on Feb 19. Is it possible I who live in Seattle can listen to your speech at the tribe or location you will be speaking at? I have never traded before I read the FAQs and enjoy them. Thank you very much.

Thank you for raising this issue.

For more information, see the Seattle Market Technicians Association,

Jan 28, 2015

Back Testing Progress


I find that Csidata also has the continuous contract data which combines both pit and electronic data. So I don't need to do it myself.

I finished the module to trade individual contracts, I plan to run back test with continuous contracts first then hook up individual contract and see whether they make difference.


Thank you for sharing your process.
Jan 28, 2015

Mastering Math

Dear Chief,

First, thank you for the math lesson [during visit to Tribe] . Our conversation helped me to see my process and relationship to my teacher differently.​

Second, FAQ is really great lately, thank you for making it available.

Third, Thank you to all of the Tribe members and FAQ contributors that make The Trading Tribe and FAQ such a great resource. Your work and FAQ contributions really help me.

Due to a "Blizzard" we postponed the NYC Tribe meeting this week. Instead of a meeting report I can report on some Tribe related processes.

I revisit the Milk model on your website and recreate the spreadsheet on my own. I get stuck a couple times notice that I know this feeling.

I feel overloaded and agitated. I acknowledge the feelings and decide to try again.
The physical sensation of agitation is burning. I feel <like an idiot > <this is easy, why don't I get it>. I notice I am berating myself, internally judging. I experience the judge feeling.

I see my assumptions are blocking me from seeing what is right in front of me.
I try again and get the model working with no real fuss. I understand how it works and how to use what I learn.

It feels good. It feels useful. I like it.

Later on, I recall the Milk lesson as I experience agitation and confusion writing my paper for system lab.

I share my feelings with my wife and she works with me in an informal hardball process.

The first few rounds of feedback are very familiar. She confirms that my communication is ​unclear.

We maintain rapport.

I'm stuck in my head. I initially can't say what I want. I find that I use too many words. I have a feeling of not wanting to be misunderstood and pinned down to something that is not what I really want. I won't pick one priority, everything is connected! It all feels important. It also feels urgent. More agitation feelings and a <stuck> <mute> feeling come up.

She receives my feelings and shares hers. We eventually make progress as I find willingness to receive and consider what I'm feeling and what she says.

Things are more lighthearted now.

I am vulnerable, she acknowledges this feeling and I feel ready to be honest with myself. Things seem clearer.

After a few more rounds I find I have willingness to say what I want. She understands. I can tell that something has shifted.

I decide I'll have fun with my work and lighten up.

It's a lot clearer. It's also the truth.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process.

In Tribe, we see many cases of people working through their issues with scary math teachers - and suddenly remembering they like math and science.

Don Herbert (Mr. Wizard)

July 10, 1917 - June 12, 2007

Shares his love of science.

Some Teachers

share their fears of science.

Jan 28, 2015

More On Situation-Specific Rocks


I have member #7's permission to forward this e-mail, which she sent to the other members of the local tribe, on to FAQ. As you can see, she later reconsiders her initial refusal of the heart rock and takes it up, with promising results.

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Thank you for making my first tribe meeting grounding and welcoming!
I drove home that evening feeling very empowered and slept well that night.

That heart rock that was suggested from Member 2 that I did not accept - actually resonated a lot with me, especially on the drive home and next day. Member 2 was right.. there was something missing in my 3 strategies - his suggestion was the missing one, and I was hesitant about it because of ego/pride, but that one was a very important one. I just had to process it a bit more in my mind and how I would implement that one.. because I didn't actually want to act on it initially.

I have a whiteboard that I have all my goals on for the different areas I focus on - health/finance/education, etc.., and I added this 'heart rock' one to my list of 4 things that came out of being in the hot seat.
I decided to act on them all straight away and asked to talk to my partner the next day about the hot seat issue. I dealt with the issue directly and ...received him, and it was a huge step to resolving things- It was the heart rock I didn't accept that inspired the action to talk to him and more importantly how I approached it and with what mindset. The position that I came from within my own mind as a result of that heart rock made the difference. So a big thank you :)

Being a new person to the process, the key phrases that trigger us are so powerful.


Thank you for forwarding this communication from #7.

You might consider increasing your support for the fore-giveness phase of the Rocks Process - in order to create more space for the Heart Rock.
Jan 28, 2015

Rejection and Marketing

Hi Chief,

I download crude oil continuous contract data from Csidata and see that after certain year(around 2002), the data start to become unusable. I know the trading volume goes from the pit trade to electronic contract. But electronic continuous contract starts from 2002. If I want to back test 30 years CL, I wonder if I need to piece them together? I am not sure if it is ok to combine these two contracts data of a certain day into one. Tradestation has CL.C(composite) which seems to be the combination of CL.P and CL

If I need to do the same with Csidata, I wonder what the rules can be, maybe just pick the High, Low and use pit Close?

I am able to match to the penny with SYS_EA, now I am testing portfolio selection and market correlation to find the way to reach a higher Bliss.

Last Friday night I am on hot seat for my rejection issue when recruiting new Tribe members. This week I find myself start to call around marketing my fund. The process helps in an unpredictable way. I remember couple years ago you tell me to start marketing immediately without waiting for a system. It takes couple years for me to realize it. Thanks a lot.

You have a nice evening,

Thank you for sharing your process.

I do not know of a "right way" to handle data. You might consider trying various ways to find out if it makes any difference.


helps aim you

towards a better match.

Jan 27, 2015

Communication and Weight


For the last week or so I feel crummy.

I gain 15-20lbs since last August and I no longer exercise. I eat to comfort myself and to medicate all types of uncomfortable feelings. I feel annoyed and aggravated easily. I don't like the disappointment I feel when my goals go unmet. I toss my to do list aside. I hear a judgement voice in my head telling me not to feel frustration or sadness.

I think a lot lately about how my partner and I cannot conceive. We try unsuccessfully for a few years and now prepare to start a second round of trying to conceive with medical help. I see the odds stacked against a successful pregnancy.

My partner stays optimistic on surface but I sense fear. I try to feel optimistic but fear creeps in. The fear of hoping and wanting to bring a life into this world but failing...again. I don't want to take another loss. I also fear feeling resentment at our relationship that cannot produce children. I don't want to feel selfish like that.

I especially feel afraid of expressing this to my partner.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process.

Putting on weight, losing interest in life and feeling depression may have to do with withholding communication.

You might consider taking your feelings about <expression> to Tribe.


and expression

run together.

Jan 27, 2015

Breathwork and Relationships

Dear Ed,

During a Breathwork session I find myself revisiting my various partners in past relationships.

I feel loving and accepting of them, even those who have not treated me very well. I feel understanding of the truth that we all did, and do, the best we can.

At one point, overcome with tenderness and compassion, I wish them all the ability to "love as if they'd never been hurt".

Suddenly I feel an AHA, as I see that what is really important is to love even though we've been hurt.

I know I can't control the outcome, and that holding back to be "safe" is a medicinal rock.

It's the pain and the vulnerability of loving that makes me able to really know the risk I take when I choose to love again.

And choose it I do.


Thank you for sharing your process.

You might consider reporting again in a couple months about how many of your insights and new behaviors you find staying with you.

Jan 27, 2015

Seattle, February 19


Delighted to learn of your visit to Seattle.

I will attend your session Seattle on Feb. 19.

Thank you for letting me know.

Jan 27, 2015

Speculating Into Retirement

Hi Ed,

We have talked to our sons (per your suggestion). They were both surprised that we were consulting them about our financial future. We all realized that we had never discussed long term planning or potential health issues that would effect ours and aspects of their lives.

After discussing the issue of a potential shortfall of funding in our future, we all knew that [my wife] and I needed a better financial plan.

We are not emotionally equipped to deal with the ups and downs of the market regardless of the trading system or the financial consultants that we have interviewed. If we had stayed in, or gone back into the market in 2008, we would have the funding that we now need for the future.

You had asked what our plans were for the future. After my second heart attack and the realization of our own mortality, our plans for the future have evolved and can be summarized in 3 statements.

1. Realizing that we have limited trading skills, our first goal is to find a superior trader to do our trading for us.

2. Our second goal is to set dates for our retirements. Our savings have to grow by our investments rather than our continuing to work to add to them.

3. Our third goal is to achieve freedom through our investments. The freedom to travel, enjoy our family and Grandchildren, and spend quality time with each other, without the pressure of job and money issues that have always been an obstacle to really enjoying our lives.

As i said, our first goal is finding a trader who can grow our savings for us. We believe you are that person, and we are respectfully requesting you to be that superior trader and being the bridge to achieving our goals.

Thank you for sharing your process and for sharing your situation with your family.

Thank you for honoring me with a request to manage funds for you.

In this connection, you might like to consider some of the following:

Speculating requires a great deal of detachment from the money - so you can surgically remove losers and keep on trying to get on board with some winners, even during, and especially during, draw downs.

I generally recommend people speculate with "unimportant" funds, so they can take losses without flinching and without abandoning their systems during setbacks.

For many people, this means speculating with no more than 10% of their liquid net worth, with an eye toward stopping out of the whole business upon losing half of that, or 5% of net lick - an amount that would not harm most people financially or emotionally.

Speculating with a large part of your retirement funds breaks all these rules and sets you up for an enormous roller coaster ride with money you cannot afford to lose.

Click here to get a gut feel for life on a roller coaster:

Note: screaming seems to help bleed off some of the fear.

I gather you find yourselves moving closer to your children, perhaps also to each other. Sharing closeness with those you love costs very little and pays enormous dividends.

In many societies, even in ours, you take care of your kids early in their lives and they help take care of you later in yours.

At this point you might consider focusing on the quality of the days you have left.

Focus Less on the Dollars
you don't have

and more on the days
you do.


Jan 27, 2015

Situation-Specific Proactive Rocks

Dear Ed,

I enjoy reading the exchanges between you and the Tribe leader who uses situation-specific proactive rocks that are suggested to the Hot Seat by the Tribe after the medicinal rocks have been returned to the Donor(s).

I have not personally experienced this variation of the process but I try to visualize being the HS in that situation.

My head feels engaged in trying to think about and remember what suggestions the Tribe makes.

My heart feels like it waits on the side for instructions from my head.

This vision leaves me feeling somewhat distracted and emotionally disengaged.

I wonder if any of the Tribe members in this particular Tribe might want to comment on their experiences with this variation of the Rocks process.


Thank you for sharing your process and for extending this thread.
Jan 27, 2015

More on Starting to Cook


(cc Tribe - I suggest we discuss this next tribe - Ed has pointed out we are not really following his process in one respect.)

Thank you for your comments including:

"I would like to know if you have any data on the relative effectiveness of these two approaches, one that quickly advances situation-specific rocks and one that slowly proceeds through fore-giving and then advances a generic Heart Rock. "

We always

1. Ask the person are they happy with the existing rocks. If not,

2. Ask would they like to replace them with new better rocks. We need to hear something like "Hell yeah!" to proceed. If so,

3. We all suggest new rocks.

4. The HS selects the rocks they want to use. Usually but not always this involves some form of heart rock-like empathetic response to the perpetrator and other people involved.

5. In the second re-enactment the original rock donor tries to give the original rock again, and the HS then respectfully declines saying something like "Thank you, but that one's not for me any more". This is the fore-giving step. The donor picks up if they have a firm intention to reject it. We feel it is important to acknowledge the original donor's good intentions, and the good intentions of the perpetrator if possible.

6. HS accepts the new proactive rocks, reprocesses related scenes etc.

In reports I - but not in the actual hot seats - often leave some steps out because they are not particularly noteworthy.

Our process does differ from the TTP Extensions on this point:

"Once the client succeeds in fore-giving the medicinal rock back to the rock
donor, another Tribe member awards the client a pro-active Heart Rock
and explains how to use it. He instructs the client to respond to stress by
establishing rapport with the stressor, finding out how the stressor feels
and inviting the stressor to listen to the client's feelings. Once rapport
forms, the client and stressor generally develop a working relationship,
including clear boundaries and respect for personal sovereignty. If the
stressor proves intransigent, the client accepts the fact and moves on. Since
the Rocks Process works on the client's internal programming, the original
stressor does not have to attend the meeting."

We allow any proactive replacement rock or rocks. They can be a heart rock or they can be another proactive rock. The HS picks the rocks he or she wants as long as they are proactive and not medicinal.

This can include a heart rock. But we find that people do not always want this. Maybe they aren't ready, or they don't feel it is relevant to that situation.

In fact this happened once this week - a member suggests a heart rock but the HS (member #7) did not want to take it up.

We also find that people often want other resources than, or as well as, the heart rock / intimacy resource.

Also in some cases our new rocks are quite specific. But in my experience we do find that people are pretty good at generalizing from specific examples. For example, I think there is a natural generalization of the rock "let the trading do its job and not try to be something else" to "any task should represent itself and not be medicine for some other emotional pain".

We place a lot of importance on the heart rock and the receiving and intimacy it promotes. In my HS this week, one of the things that most struck me was that my brother, who was only 8 at the time, was fully aware of what was going on between my parents while I was completely oblivious. Had I been in a more receiving / intimacy mode with them, I would also have been aware of all these undercurrents.

I don't have any data on the relative merits of the two approaches other than my experiences in Tribe which suggests both are useful. After thinking about this for a while I have the idea to go over my log of hot seats and see which use the heart rock, which don't, and what the longer term success of those new rocks was. If I do this I will report the outcome.

Thank you for sending me more information on your version of the Rocks Process, including your use of situation-specific rocks.

TTP grows emperically, through experiments such as yours and through sharing variations through this forum.

I appreciate your documentation of your version of the process and your willingness to champion it.

In my experience, people who take the hot seat typically express some version of "I know the Heart Rock works for most people; I just don't see how it applies to me."

Later on, during the process, they get it.

I can imagine a client (Hot Seat Guy) getting a situation-specific rock, such as the one you cite: <any task should represent itself and not be medicine for some other emotional pain>.

I naturally wonder about how this rock carries the meaning of "emotional pain." In this case I might encourage the Tribe to help HS go further - to continue, to develop his form and to tease out a critical incident in which he feels such pain.

TTP addresses emotional issues; most of these associate with a critical incident in which the client learns to deal with stress by shutting down rather than by maintaining rapport.

I suspect situation-specific rocks might, in a way, help medicate the fear of going more deeply into the critical incident - leaving the client with a <do something appropriate> rock which he can obtain without doing the emotional work - and one which does not support him when he again feels the pain and shuts down.

I see your role (and mine) of Process Manager as one in which we wake up Tribe members and help them develop tools to stay awake.

Jan 26, 2015

Tribe Report - Starting to Cook


4 members present. Interstate members week off and one member on holidays. We welcome a new member. We are discussing how bad sugar is for you when she arrives with a tray of delicious cakes. It is a good thing that eating healthily is something that can best be done in the nonexistent future! Did I mention they were delicious?

We go around and introduce ourselves to the new member and she introduces herself.

I chair the meeting. This week I try to be more businesslike and get on with things and avoid side-tracking.

Drumming proceeds nicely and we then do some exercises. Everyone has 2 minutes timed to introduce their HS (hot seat) topic. Everyone has a topic and I have a prior commitment to HS my topic of my feelings of shame and my parents repeated shaming of me.

I (member #3) go first. I recall a recent incident where I need to visit a place normally only used by drug addicts (more on this in my next workshop follow up report). I explain my situation - I am not like those addicts I just need something you have - to the guy and he says "Yeah everyone has a story why they're not like those real junkies". He didn't mean that in a nasty way, in fact he was very caring and compassionate but I feel very humbled and ashamed. But he gives me the what I need. I have another similar experience earlier the same day.

I get hot pretty quickly and the process manager freezes me and I find an incident when for once my father decides to go on holidays with us instead of going on hunting trips with his buddies. Unknown to the rest of us he arranges for his buddies to show up at the destination so they could all go hunting each day. When we arrive Mum is very upset as she realizes she has been hoodwinked . My brother and I go for a walk along the beach. It gets dark and our Dad shows up very angry brandishing a large stick. He berates us for wandering off and me in particular shaming me and stating his view I will never change.

We reenact this and I receive my old strategies from Mum: Feel ashamed, hold onto that bad feeling, don't do things that people could judge you for.

We identify some new rocks and after respectfully refusing the old rock I accept the new strategies: Receive the other person and how they feel; this gives better insight into what they are doing and what this really means for me if anything; realize that learning and mistakes are a normal part of life and nothing to be ashamed of; think about the effects of your actions on others which makes it possible at times to anticipate things that will bother other people.

I think through other related incidents in my life and reprocess them accordingly. On the way home I realize I have left my jacket at Member #1's place and it is cold. I ask at the train station if they have a travellers aid office to see if they can lend me a coat. I feel no embarrassment about this and the people I speak to are helpful.

Member #7 goes next. She worries about her discretionary trading account which has blown up a few times and requires refunding from her salary. Meanwhile her systems trading account is quietly doing well. It even partly funds the discretionary trading account!

In clarifying the situation we notice that HS mostly hits the discretionary trading account when her relationship with her partner is in turmoil. Her partner is in legal and financial trouble with ongoing court cases, and HS says he is divorcing his current wife (not HS). HS's partner has fertility problems and he has gone cold on her since he realized he can't have children with her. They were planning to have children. HS appears much more upset about this than about the trading losses.

We run a HS on the issue of the feelings about the relationship and her partner going cold and being unresponsive and disrespectful over the phone. Things proceed quickly.

After freezing, HS identifies a scene where her father is refusing to answer a question and berates her for being a stupid-questions-asking-woman. HS then goes into her room and works assiduously on math problems as in their country as a girl she cannot go out. HS realizes that in this situation and also with the current relationships problems she seeks an outlet where she can take action and can control what she does - math, trading respectively. She also notices that she has a very routine and ordered life with everything pre-planned and no excitement or "creativity" as she calls it.

The donor of the existing strategy - do some busy work when worried or upset - is HS's mother who obsessively does housework in similar situations.

We reenact this then identify some new strategies. These are: experience what is actually going on and feel the associated feelings and take the appropriate actions in the actual current situation. Let the trading do its job which is to make money not to provide drama and excitement and diversion. Consider finding another outlet for "creativity" other than discretionary trading. HS likes these strategies and seems a lot less tense post the HS.

I feel happy that our new member had gone through the process at the first meeting, because this helps people to realize that TTP is a very safe and powerful process. There are no monsters lurking that are best left alone in my five years of experience with this.

Member #2 has an issue with perfectionism and feels bad when he makes any mistake. He avoids getting into situations where he might make a mistake or look bad. He feels strong emotions of fear of loss and fear of missing out on trades. On freezing the feeling at a point of intensity he remembers falling off some rocks into the bay and getting soaked up to his chest, at age 8 or so. He did not tell his parents because he was worried his father would be angry and say, as usual "you're useless, you're useless and lazy, you will always be like this".

We reenact with the old strategy which is to cover mistakes up or only vaguely allude to them (eg "sometimes I don't take a position when I should" vs "this week I missed a big win due to not taking a trade") and to avoid situations where he can make mistakes or be seen to fail.

Then HS decides he wants new strategies and many possibilities are offered. He decides on: Be honest with yourself and others about mistakes. You cannot learn if you do not process the information that a mistake provides. Treat mistakes as learning opportunities - it is only really a mistake if you don't learn from it. Take calculated risks to create learning opportunities. Receive the other person and see where they are coming from.

We do not get to member #1's topic which seems a little indistinct. He wants better trading performance. He has stopped his massive past losses and is making money but he wants to make more consistent profits and more profits in total. We suggest he focuses on his feelings around missed opportunities over the next two weeks to see if a hot feeling comes up.


I feel terrific at the end of the tribe. I think we are really starting to cook.


Source of picture: anonymous user


Thank you for sharing your process, for documenting your meeting and for experimenting with the formula and running variations.

I get a sense that you quickly make connections about medicinal rocks and then replace them with situation-specific proactive rocks.

In the PR Tribe we hold the fore-giving process as central to the work and formalize it to include considerable resistance by the rock donors - so that the HS has to muster a high level of intention to return the medicinal rocks.

The fore-giving process generally involves establishing rapport and sharing feelings with the rock donor. The Process Manager or other Tribe member may coach HS to help him get the hang of it.

After fore-giving, HS may feel some confusion and emptiness and also a sense of accomplishment. The process also gives him some experience with intimacy-centric relating.

We then follow on with implementation of the Heart Rock - that guides intimacy-centric relating by establishing rapport and sending and receiving feelings. We leave it to HS to apply these methods in particular situations.

I would like to know if you have any data on the relative effectiveness of these two approaches, one that quickly advances situation-specific rocks and one that slowly proceeds through fore-giving and then advances a generic Heart Rock.

Jan 26, 2015

Apology Form

Dear Ed:

Here's a form to use ... it's the best way to have a successful relationship.

Say "yes dear" and send along the form.

Thank you for sending me the form.

In Tribe we practice establishing rapport and sharing and receiving feelings, heart-to-heart.

Ideally, both parties to a dispute take full responsibility for all results and acknowledge their intention to manifest the current situation.

In this context, we rarely extend apologies, except as shorthand and would have little use for such a form, except as a curiosity.

You might consider taking your feelings about <injustice> and <reparations> to Tribe.
Jan 25, 2015

Eye Catching


This catches my eye this morning as I drive by.

I stop and take a closer look.

Thank you for reminding me to keep truckin' along.
Jan 25, 2015

Govopoly Resource


After reading Govopoly, and your suggestion in the book on the subject of dynamic systems I started to research and read about it.

This link may be helpful to those who want to learn about this topic.

online course of Prof. Jay Forrester

Thank you for sending me the link.
Jan 25, 2015

PR Tribe Report


I have a very pleasant experience by participating in the Tribe meeting.

The Tribe meeting began with the drumming continued with the check in and every member explained the issues they want to work.

The first member in the hot seat began describing the issue he wants to work.

He began developing the first form and the rest of the tribe members began to support him to continue with the form. Various forms were observed, and we repeat the process with each form.

We proceeded with the representation (role play) each of the members of the tribe, took a roll (father, mother and sister).

Then the member in the hot seat received the rocks that her father, mother and sister had given him where he represented his behavior.

This behavior was observed in a business case that the member described that it bothered him.

The member in the hot seat internalize that behavior and began to return the rocks to mother, father and sister.

He began to return to the rocks, he explained that no longer wanted. And returned to each family role play members.

The member in the hot seat, release each member of the role that was doing.

In some parts of the process was difficult not to get emotionally involved.

I like how all members participate in the process and the client in the hot seat, reaches aha!


Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting the meeting.

You might consider taking your feelings about <emotional involvement> to Tribe.

Jan 25, 2015

PR Tribe Report - Getting Out

Around 2007 I read about Trading Tribe, I have the Intention of joining a Tribe one day. July 4th 2014 Ed Seykota attends a BBQ at my apartment. January 22, 2015 I attend my first ever Trading Tribe meeting. I feel the power of Intention = Result.

We discuss goals. It is surprisingly difficult to choose effective metrics for each member's goals. I look forward to seeing the effectiveness of measurement, metrics, and clarity on achievement of goals. Being part of a community with common experience, and a willingness to work on a feelings level is a long time goal of mine. Trading Tribe feels right to me

After reading about hot seat and the rocks process I witness it for the first time. It is clear that we all share common experiences, and all learn from and benefit from the process. Encouraging the forms reminds me of phone sex, I expect to get more comfortable with it as I get more experience in TTP.

Since Tribe I start to notice feelings of being stuck or trapped in a relationship, the same feelings I have when stuck or trapped in a trading position.

I look forward to defining metrics around my goals, reporting them to my Tribe members. I look forward to the next Tribe meeting.

Thank you PR Tribe Members for your support and guidance. Thank you Ed, for your Hospitality and for your role as Chief.

Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting the meeting.

You might consider taking your feelings about <getting out> to Tribe.

Getting Out

of a position or a relationship
might start with getting out
of your mind.

Jan 25, 2015

More on Govopoly

Dear Chief,

The new Francis Fukuyama book Politcal Order and Political Decay, and review by Professor John Dilulio, Jr., are about govopoly (even if they don't yet know it).
januaryfebruary_2015/ on_political_books/

Thank you for making the connection and for sending me the link.
Jan 24, 2015

PR Tribe Report

Dear Chief,

Thank you for hosting the tribe meeting. I enjoy meeting the PR tribe members.

I arrive with a positive flow of energy. I feel warmth when I see you and feel a connection when I meet other tribe members.

Awesome! Brand new drums.

I enjoy drumming. The drumming seems to quickly organize into a rhythm that feels smooth and steady. Everyone seems connected somehow.

As we cycle through issues, I feel surprise that someone is hot. Really hot.

Everyone encourages his forms and they quickly develop. They seem to fade as our encouragement wanes. We ramp up our encouragement and his forms quickly follow.

The member is squirming around in his seat developing his forms with our encouragement.

The chief freezes him and asks him where he is and who's around him.

The member replies he is at home in a room and his sixteen year old brother is relentlessly harassing him. He is five years old. He wants the harassment to stop. He wants some help.

More details emerge involving his sister, mother and father participating as medicinal rock donors.

We roll play the event with each family member gifting their medicinal rocks to him. One by one the gifts arrive.

His mother gifts to him the "make him like you so you can manipulate him" medicinal rock.

His sister gifts to him the "shutdown" medicinal rock.

His father gifts to him the "total checkout" medicinal rock.

The member does not want to carry these rocks with him anymore.

It seems emotional difficult for him to fore-give the rocks to his family members.

He appears reluctant but steadfast. The Chief coaches him through the process. The member is gentle and caring in fore-giving the rocks to family members.

I feel his reluctance, anguish, guilt, desire and deep care for each family member as he fore-gives the rocks. One by one he fore-gives the rocks.

I have a strong sense he wants something different for his life. He does not want the results of those rocks for his life. I am happy for him. His courage inspires me. I am grateful to play a role in his process.

The Chief gifts to the member a new pro-active rock. The member accepts the gift, although uncertain how to begin using it. We role play the original issue with the member implementing the pro-active rock.

Everyone is released from their roles and welcomed back as tribe members. Everyone checks out.

His process helps me. I hope my words help him.

Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting the meeting.
Jan 24, 2015

- see First Tribe Meeting, below

To [Name],

Thank you ... for creating such an accurate SVOP account of the process and our meeting.
This is one of the very clearest FAQ reports and accounts of rocks process I have seen.
Reading it brings me right back.

Thank you for having the courage to do the work.

Thank you for acknowledging your fellow Tribe member.
Jan 24, 2015

PR Tribe Report

hi Ed,

Thank you for sharing your home and for hosting the meeting this week.

I learn a tremendous amount about myself and others in our group as we engage in goal setting, rocks process and hardball.

I feel my connection to each issue raised and find an awareness of my own feelings and k-nots. As we work with each other.

The feelings I feel in my role in rocks process of <bully> and <feel like s--t> linger. My thought process is replaying the last few days and the feelings come with the thoughts. Today I find a lot of difficult feelings coming up. I share them with my wife and feel them.

I feel a relationship between the feelings of <unclear> , <don't know how> , < stuck> , <what's the matter with you>, < no one understands you> and < feel like s--t>.

I recognize some re-enforcing medicinal behaviors I use to create more <feel like s--t> including self destruction and negative expectation risk taking , <blow up>.

I recognize my father as the rock donor for <feel like s--it>
as it relates to <blow up>.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting the meeting.
Jan 24, 2015

Wants a Seattle Tribe


Is there any Tribe activity in the Seattle, WA. area? If so, can you steer me to the appropriate contact?


Current Tribe information appears in the Tribe Directory, at Resources, above.

Tribes come and go. I do not monitor Tribes, except as they write in to FAQ.

You may start your own Tribe if you like.

I plan to speak in Seattle on February 19.
Jan 23, 2015

PR Tribe Report - First Tribe Meeting


In preparation for my first ever Tribe Meeting I review the zero point and rocks process. This starts to stir up some stuff and as the time for tribe approaches I tell myself to ignore my feelings, "Just be cool" I say to myself, "You've never been to Tribe, you should just watch and see what the other guys do - some of them have traveled a long way for this, you should let them go first."

We meet up and the room has a couple of familiar faces and some people I've never met before. Everyone seems mellow. Except for me. At this point I'm really just trying to remain present. Drumming begins and is over way too fast.

Check in. I have tingling in my hands. Chief asks for current issues. I report that I'm having trouble getting the results I would like from some of the people that provide services to my company - that I'm having trouble expressing my feeling of frustration - and that separately, I have been noticing the way in which I use non verbal communication to control interactions. I report that I feel like these two things are related but that I don't have a handle on how they interact.

I report that this is a pressing issue that is directly impacting my life, but play down how hot the issue is, because there is no way I'm going first.

So I go first.

The chief starts to question me.

"How does it feel when you don't get support from people you are paying?"

And just like that we are into it. No warm up exercises - nothing - just straight into it - and I'm the client. This is an experienced group that is clearly well practiced with TTP. Immediately I get encouraged to,

"Do that again",

"Say that again",

"Feel that more,"

"That's it - rub your face more."

I have a moment when I realize that I'm now in the process. I wasn't expecting it to move this fast. I sense that I have a choice to make, and decide to commit to the experience. The tribe helps me to focus my feelings. Most pertinent - the Chief says, "You know this feeling", and I do, I know it well, I act it out often. "Good that's it feel it more" - the tribe helps me to explore the form. Then freeze. Chief checks for willingness several times throughout the process. Do I want to continue? At this point I am fully committed, if I have any chance to understand this feeling I'm going to take it.

The chief asks if I recognize this feeling from childhood.

He prompts with, "Where are you?"

"In the house,"

"How old are you?"


"Who else is there?"

This information becomes the basis for the model that we are going to role-play. Check for willingness - I'm still in.

My fellow tribe members offer to take on the roles of my family members:

Checked out dad.

Manipulative mother.

Shut down sister.

Angry brother.

Now the characters are in place and the work begins. My brother starts teasing me and puts me in a headlock. My cries for help are ignored by my mother - as is the whole situation by my father. Each member of the Tribe plays his part with uncanny precision and nuance. I start to really visualize my family as it was then. I'm really reliving the trauma - sick feeling - tears - cry for help - and shut down.

The Chief is coaching and supportive, I can hear him directing the role-play, but I'm too into my process to really know what is going on. The vibe is positive and supportive so I'm able to remain in the moment.

Next the rocks are given to me. Each of the tribe members are in character giving me advise on how to use the medicinal techniques that they have learned for dealing with the angry brother. They recommend that I use the same techniques - Check out - Manipulate - Shut down. Each gives me a seashell that represents a medicinal technique. I'm deep in at this point - sobbing, shaking.

Now comes the fore-giving. It's time to give the shells back and stop using the medicinal techniques. I'm really relying on coaching now, and just hanging in. I try to give the rocks back, but it's not that easy. The tribe members are still in character - they try to convince me to keep hold of the shell and the medicinal technique, saying things like,

"This has always worked for me."

"You should hold on to it"

"This is the best way to deal with all your problems"

This step for me is really powerful. It forces me to be emphatic - to fully commit to returning the shells, simultaneously, I start to understand that the rock donors are truly trying to help me the only way that they know how. A cathartic sense of empathy for my family members comes over me. I'm even tempted to keep some of the shells, but I resolve that I don't want this anymore, saying,

"I can't and won't continue this way."

Telling my sister this is the most resonate for me.

I give back the shells. The tribe members are still in character and say,

"OK I'll take it back, but, I'm just holding onto it for you, you can always get it back when you want it".

There's something strangely reassuring about the idea that I can get the technique back anytime I want. I feel a sense of calm.

Now the Chief gives me a proactive heart rock. It's actually a small gold colored stone polished and comforting to hold. He explains that he is giving me something better than what I had.

I get the gist of it, but I'm deep in and not really thinking, more just feeling my way through the experience.

Now the angry brother comes back. I'm confused. But again the Chief is giving me verbal cues about what to say and the Tribe remains in character and supportive of my process.

With coaching and armed with the heart rock I ask my brother to tell me how he's feeling.

Instinctively the Tribe member playing my brother says, "I feel like s--t".

On a conscience level I kind of knew that he must feel this way. But I had never felt the kind of empathy for him that I did at this moment - another moment of deep recognition.

I'm hanging on by a thread now, and it's time to role-play the new proactive technique with the service provider.

I stumble through the process relying completely on coaching and understand that it might take a while to really get the hang of the new proactive approach.

Check out - and release Tribe members from their roles - is the last step, and happens in a kind of dream state.

I'm unsettled and raw the rest of the night, my tribe seems to recognize and accept this.

Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting your experience with the Rocks Process.
Jan 23, 2015

Wants to Pollinate

Dear Ed,

I ask for your permission to attend a Tribe meeting in PR as pollinator.
If you agree, I need the dates in order to book my flight. I remember
seeing it on the FAQs, but now I cannot find it.

Welcome to PRTT.

We plan to meet on February 5, March 5 and March 26.

Please return the application (except #8) you can find on-line at:
Jan 23, 2015

Getting What You Want


I am intrigued by your quote, "Win or lose, everyone gets what they want from the market."

Am I sabotaging myself while learning to trade because of a family history of financial problems?

I know I can overcome this issue if I knew where to look for the solution.

Do you have books that will walk me through the steps to resolve my problem so that I can earn a living trading? Thank you.

Thank you for raising this issue.

In TTP we hold that Rocks (response patterns) we accmulate during formative experiences continue to determine our intentions and results later in life.

We also find that a Trading Tribe can help us identify our Medicinal Rocks and replace them with pro-active Heart Rocks.

My book, The Trading Tribe provides guidance on how to operate such a Tribe. It does not provide step-by-step instructions on how to do it by yourself.

Jan 22, 2014

PR Tribe Report - Cleaning Up


Last night we have our first PR Tribe Meeting.

In one of the exercises we go around and state our goals for the session - and state how we plan to measure results.

I do not see a way to measure progress for one of my goals, namely: cleaning up the clutter around the house and in my office. Various members suggest recording the number of items I discard - or throwing out stuff I don't use. Nothing rings a bell.

Presently, one member suggests measuring the free and clear surface area, in square feet. He also suggests a cumulative measurement in sq-ft-months. Upon hearing this, I have an AHA - that my attempts to measure and deal with clutter focus on the problem, namely clutter, so naturally favor production of more of it. His metric focus on the actual goal, free space.

Later that evening, I have an irresistible urge to produce empty surface area.

Thanks to the Tribe and to this astute participant, my home and office now appear noticeably cleaner.

Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting your meeting.

You can Focus

on the clutter ...

... or on the space.

Jan 22, 2015

Possible Contrary Indication


Time Magazine
February 2, 2015


Thank you for sending me the magazine cover.
Jan 22, 2015

In Support of the New PR Tribe


A postcard to express my support and gratitude to you an all the PR Tribe members at the start of ten emotional and intellectual challenging meetings! I feel the Under-Fred-Network has the resources to overcome a distance of 5000 miles: your willingness to growth and to serve others resonates this far.

work !

A hug,


Thank you for sending your support and for creating the postcard.
Jan 22, 2015

Spanish: Para y Por

Querido Ed:

I consult several ressources and feel irritated and overwhelmed about the use of "para" y "por", since both mean "for". The article

seems to me like an explanation written by a fundamental analyst.

I decide to use my common sense and my experience with Spanish and write a code with signals that you can follow. Like any system, it does not work always, but yields very presentable results:

"Para" indicates a purpose (I trade for a living / comercio para vivir) or a recipient (this gift is for John / este regalo es para Juan)

Necesito dinero para las compras.
Necesito dinero para el señor que toca el banjo (He plays at my party).
Necesito dinero por el señor que toca el banjo (He distracted me while trading and I lost a huge ammount and now I am poor).

"For" also translates differently: Necesito dinero para que el señor deje de tocar el banjo, porque quiero dormir (I need money for the guy to stop playing banjo, for I want to sleep).

Intention to do something is in the core of "para". For example:

My mom gave me ten dollars for the book.

I sell it to her: Me dio diez dólares por el libro.
I want to buy the book at the store: Me dio diez dólares para el libro.

Juan compró el libro para Maria
(as a gift for her)

Juan compró el regalo por María (instead of her).
(he bought it because she could not)


"Por" applies, as far as I can see, for all the rest uses of "for" in English.


You might want to challenge this system by testing it with some friends. I appreciate any feedback.

Thank you for giving me the chance to investigate and understand more closely my own language!

Best regards y hasta pronto,

Gracias por ayudarme; me gustaria usar este information para ver mejor las diferencias.
Jan 22, 2015

Wants to Get in the Pool

Hi Mr Seykota,

I have a deep appreciation for the work you have done in the trend following space. You,along with a few others, have inspired me and have giving me insurmountable confidence to develop a simple trading system. I'm 27yrs old and I plan on starting my own cta in 6 months. I was wondering if I could have access to your pool of knowledge? Maybe skype or email once a week to go over some problems or questions I encounter in backtesting, research etc... I know I can learn a lot from you. Hope to hear from you soon.

Thank you for sharing your process.

You may send questions to FAQ and also apply for private consulting, at Ground Rules, above.

Jan 21, 2015



I was asking you about 3 clear questions. And you have sent me note of FAQ. But I can not find the right answers in a lot junk there.......

Can you just answer my 3 questions below???

It will take you just some minutes.

Thank you.
Thank you for raising this issue.

An answer to you original e-mail appears on January 3 under "Trading Questions."

You might also consider taking your feeling about <control> and <intimacy> to Tribe.

Jan 21, 2015

Tribe Meeting Report

Hi Ed,

We meet at 7PM and enjoy friendly conversation about the Swiss Franc.
One of our members [Name 1] tells us that he was stopped out of his trade and had minimal slippage. The loss was in line with his expected typical loss. I congratulate him on excellent trading and discipline In stop placement.

We notice the time and that one of our members is not present.
I look at my email and learn that he is stuck in Lincoln Tunnel traffic and says he has no ETA.

We decide that we will give him until 7.30 to arrive then we'll drum and check in. [Member 4] Arrives right before 7.30.

5 members are present. We drum and it carries on for some time. We enter several distinct phases and the drumming winds down in an orderly an synchronous closure.

We check in.

Everyone seems hot except for me. [Name 2] was absent last week and [Name 3] expresses urgency for hot seat. We decide that the last phase of our planned snapshot work from the prior meeting will wait. We have satisfactory clarity and willingness to support the hot seat.​

We relocate to "the cave" for hot seat.

Our first hot seat starts. [Name 3] takes the hot seat. His process in very verbal and gestural and engages feelings of loss and being attacked.
The hot seat experiences feelings of pain and open wound near his esophagus, strangulation and being attacked. He gets quiet. There are lulling movements, stroking from the throat to diaphragm and down to the abdomen​. There is an occasional groan, moan and deep breath. He rocks very subtly while he strokes and says "I can't believe I survived".

Hot seat reaches a point where he no longer has willingness to continue.

We check out on his process.

There is dialogue and story telling as one member [Name] asks questions while checking out on hot seat's process. The questions directly concern the verbal content and story that accompanies hot seat's process. I am feeling annoyed by the questions and the dialogue. I notice the feeling of being annoyed <want to say "shut up" , "get back on track"> I am surprised by the feeling and re focus on the hot seat and just bing present to support the process.

Hot set becomes animated and makes gestures of waving and dismissal.
We encourage him to get into it. He makes more gestures and some sounds as he blurts out details of a recent trauma. He has "unloaded" the feeling.

There is a brief discussion as hot-seat reconciles his hot seat experience with his recent experiences and parts of his snapshot. It winds down. We thank him for sharing he thanks us for our support.

Next hot seat is [Name 1]. It is his first hot seat experience. He begins his process by explaining that before trading, he has no recollection of having felt regret. Since he has been a trader he finds that he experiences regret in trading and outside of trading. <regret> and <dwell> are the entry point. We ask him to show us how regret feels. He begins with a tapping of his head with his fingers on the top, front right quadrant of his head​. He taps. We tap. We encourage him to do more of that. He narrates his perception of the feeling and the tapping.​ "It feels fake". I ask him if he is willing to feel <it feels fake>.

He gets into it. We encourage him. He is reluctant to continue and appears to judge the feeling and his perception of it. I encourage him to feel what it feels like to judge the feeling. This amplifies his process and he gets into a new form and says "I have pain". The pain occurs near the area he has been tapping. It appears to be a more focused and smaller area.

We encourage him to stay with it and he goes deeper. A few moments later a <sad> , slack appearance appears on his face in stark contrast to the animated, smiling expressions that accompany his usual communication.

The tribe receives this feeling and hot seat abruptly sits up straight, opens his eyes and says " yeah, that's good. I think I'm good. I'm done for now".

He asks for feedback. Dialogue picks up again (I feel annoyed again, off track). Someone says: "Go with that, talk your way out of it".
We encourage him to talk his way out of it. He gets into a <talk your way out of it> form.

Moments pass and he gets an ah ha memory of winning a swimming race he had not prepared to in advance win. He is set to compete with a great competitor and decides he will just give it his best. As the race concludes he finds he won. It feels great. He sees makes eye contact with the competitor that had been expected to win and feels a moment of regret as he perceives the shame the other boy is experiencing. The feeling passes.

I ask if he has willingness to further experience the feelings (I hope to take the opportunity to introduce rocks process). He prefers to check out on the process.

I share my desire to share rocks process and thank Hot Seat for sharing his process with us. Checkouts continue. Two tribe members (our first hot seat and the member that is engaging in questioning have to leave.)

Three members remain. We continue our checkout on the last hot seat.

We discover that the work that has been done by hot seat 2 resonates with all of us. We have a feelings oriented conversation about the surprise pain of winning, success followed by blowups in trading as a method to induce non trading related outcomes in relationships. Stories and feelings are shared.

It is nearly midnight. We check out.

This morning I realize I have an issue with <on track>. I feel gratitude for the insight and acceptance of the feelings of <regret the win>

Thank you.​


Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting your meeting.

In Tribe, deep understanding naturally follows from the process while going for understanding blocks the process.


can cover up
what we don't want to say.