What They Want
I wrote to you recently about how your observation that everyone gets
what they want was exemplified in how people's subconsciouses are so
powerful it can guide them to great success or failure.
I cited an example of a trader friend of mine nicknamed Typhoid Trader
as any trading system he tried would fail immediately after he started
trading it. His hundreds of other trades over a period of several years
also failed almost to the minute of putting on a trade. It was nothing
short of remarkable.
In light of this, I was wondering if those who are sitting in prison or
6 feet under for creating amazing technologies or cures for disease
whose reputations have been ruined by the state in the name of big
business/big pharma/etc would agree.
Did these individuals really want to be persecuted for their
brilliance? To date, there are plenty of stories of such individuals so
society is waking up. As a collective, they motivate the rest of us to
stand up against big, corrupt government, though as Govopoly shows,
nothing much can be done at this stage. So perhaps the 50,000 foot view
is they wanted this to happen as it ultimately creates revolutionary
Even so, I am having a hard time understanding how these heroes whose
lives were ruined and in many cases made out to be villains through the
distortion of the press, some who were framed for witch hunt type
crimes, wanted this to happen to them. Did they really get what they
[Name] who once served in US government is a great whistle blower. His
website has a large audience. More are waking up to the atrocities of
big government, justice systems, and the like. Of course, his life may
be at risk in running such a site.
Here's an excerpt from a recent article he wrote:
"The privatization of the US prison system has resulted in huge numbers
of innocent people being sent to prison, where they are forced to work
for Apple Computer, IT services, clothing companies that manufacture
for the US military, and a large number of other private businesses.
The prison laborers are paid as low as 69 cents per hour, below the
This is America today. Corrupt police. Corrupt prosecutors. Corrupt
judges. But maximum profits for US Capitalism from prison labor. Free
market economists glorified private prisons, alleging that they would
be more efficient. And indeed they are efficient in providing the
profits of slave labor for capitalists."
So do you feel any of the incarcerated or assassinated innocent
victims, some who should be deemed heroes, get what they wanted?
you for raising this issue.
Intention of a system refers to its structure, how you set things up.
The Result refers to the behavior of the system, how things turn
The statement, "Everybody gets what they want," refers
to the relationship between intentions and results. You reap the result
of the intentions you sow.
One way to land in jail involves teasing the authorities.
This type of Intentions = Results pattern seems to appeal to people who like to work on authority and martyrdom issues.
In January 2015, after increasing my account size by 119% I re-set my
position sizing to my then current equity with a target to double my equity
and a drawdown tolerance of 50%. After just over a year, my account
equity has grown by 10.75% and is currently showing a drawdown of
To date, the worst daily close drawdown during this period has been
41.45%. Throughout this period I find I am able to execute my signals
and review the results with a feeling
of calm. At times - especially when my equity is growing
or shrinking at a high rate - I worry if my account has the properties
of 'overshoot and collapse'.
For the last two weeks I feel pain and churning in my stomach, I wonder
if this is a signal to exit some profitable positions or just an
illness. I realize I
have a choice of feeling regret at exiting positions too early or
possibly regretting sticking with my system and losing open profits.
At the moment I am sticking with my system.
During the summer of 2015 I decide to expand my trading into trading
individual stocks. This raises a whole new set of issues: the universe
of stocks to be traded, the number of positions to hold at any one
time, a method to select stocks within the universe, margin
requirements, tax considerations and compliance reporting.
I enjoy the research and I create a system involving a filter to select
only stocks exhibiting the fastest rate of growth and simple long only
trend following entry and exit rules. I again target to double my
account equity with a drawdown tolerance of 50%. I start
trading my system on 4th August 2015. My equity since then has
decreased by 13.76%.
I find I am
not following my rules fully and realise I am not confident in the
quality of my work. This evening I write a plan that
involves retesting a number of ideas. I feel daunted by the amount of
time that will be involved, I feel a sense of being stupid that my
habit of working alone means I do not have a team to collaborate with,
I wonder how the work will change things for me.
Thank you as always Ed for keeping FAQ online and sharing your work. I
hope all is well for you and your family.
you for sharing your process.
You might consider that trend following does not include setting
You might consider taking your feelings of <regret> to
Tribe as an entry point.,
I was thinking how do you deal with the hurts. By forgiving.
Forgiveness sounds easy, but it's probably the hardest concept to grasp.
you for raising this issue.
Some people engage a ritual of forgiveness as an intentional and
voluntary process in which they undergo a change in feelings and
attitude regarding an offense, let go of "negative" emotions such as
vengefulness and develop an ability to wish the offender well.
In TTP, we take a different view.
1. Trust / Taste: we don't engage in the ritual of collecting evidence
and making a one-on guess about whether we can trust someone; we
establish rapport at the beginning of the relationship and maintain
rapport throughout the relationship, so we can taste each others'
ongoing level of desire to keep agreements.
2. Drift: In case the relationship starts to drift, and agreements
start to turn murky, we maintain rapport and discuss ways to change the
terms of the relationship to bring it in line with everyone's
intentions - or to end it, early on.
3. Judging / Taking Responsibility: We do not judge each other or try,
through legal proof, to cast the other party as the villain; we each
take responsibility for the evolution of the relationship and view the
other party as a mirror of our own intentions.
4. Attraction: We look for response patterns (Rocks) within ourselves
that account for attracting our partner and managing the
relationship to get the current result.
5. Medicinal: We notice some of our response patterns may involve an
attempt to medicate "negative" feelings. As we come to see all our
feelings as having positive intentions, we notice our motivation for
delivering medicinal responses diminishes.
5. Fore-Give-Ness: In TTP we engage a ritual in which we give
our response patterns (Rocks) back to the people we hold as our role
models, and from whom we originally learn our response patterns (The
Rock Donors). We replace these Rocks with pro-active Heart Rocks.
These methods tend to cast the other person in the relationship as a
teacher and as an opportunity for developing and trying out new
relationship skills (Rocks).
We hold that conventional forgiving, in the sense of absolving someone
from responsibility and then wishing them well, falls into the
behavioral category of self-medication and enabling.
Tribe & System Development
Hello Mr. Seykota,
... I’m a full time software (iPhone) developer living in Puerto Rico.
I started studying the markets almost two years ago and after a lot of
experimentation I decided to practice CAN SLIM investing exclusively in
March 2015. I’m still in the process of developing my trading routine
and rules and I have to say it’s been an interesting journey.
I see you mention in the Tribe’s website that you live in Puerto Rico.
I’ve been trying to connect with other traders in the island without
At one point I even contacted Investor’s Business Daily to see if I
could start an "IBD Meetup" here in the island but they replied that
they don’t have many subscribers from Puerto Rico.
I saw that there was a Puerto Rico Tribe that met in 2015. Are there
plans for meetings in 2016. Do you offer seminars or workshops in the
island? I would love to listen to you in person and meet other similar
minded people in Puerto Rico.
you for raising this issue.
I have your letter now on display on FAQ - as an invitation for others
please remove my Tribe invitation (Warsaw, Poland) from the directory.
you for managing the Tribe and for helping to keep the directory
Informaton Document Update
I attach a Boston Trading Tribe update for the Tribe directory.
Thank you for your support,
Traditional TTP, Rocks Process, Snapshot Process
Promote personal and professional growth of all members. Share and
practice Trading Tribe educational technology. Continue along the path
towards being the best I can be, in terms of family, relationships, and
career. Practice intimacy relating. Use SVO-p-b language.
you for sending me your new Trading Tribe Information Document (TTID).
You can find it on line at Resources, above, in the Tribe Directory
under Boston, Massachusetts.
regarding the above system on your website, I would like to ask the
following: are the occasional winners expected to outperform the
whipsaw losses over time? Is this system similar to one that successful
traders have used? Many thanks.
you for raising this issue.
The system on the site illustrates the mechanics of implementing a
I do not have expectations for this system to meet or surpass any
I do not recommend following or not following this system, or any
others on this site.
Dear Mr Seykota,
Thank you for your kind reply.
You are asking me " ... what kind of increasing-size Rocks I feel
unable to move alone".
I would address the answer this way:
I initiate each trade with 1 contract
every usd100k in the account (I trade the e-mini s&p500).
I would feel more comfortable trading 10
sub-accounts of usd100k each, using 1 contract in each, rather then
trading a single account of usd1m, using a 10-contract initial trade.
As you can understand, the risk profile would be the same, but the
feeling of a bigger burden (rock), is heavier for me in the second
you for raising this issue.
You might consider reading The
Trading Tribe and TTP Essentials
before we continue the discussion of the Rocks Process.
See Resources, above.
I attended my first Tribe meeting last week. It was in newly
reformulated Central Florida Tribe. I had a mixed experience.
There were four members. All members had prior Tribe experience and
workshop experience. I am brand new to the tribe. I felt apprehensive
coming to the meeting. But I need this. I have quite a few issues I
want to address and I have high hope for this process.
I am very nervous. We do the drumming. I find that this actually does
help me to calm down a little. We go around the circle and tell our
thoughts and feelings. My
were anxiety, trepidation, curiosity. My thoughts were what if I screw
this up? Trying to make sure I am doing it right. I am hopeful of the
Then I am up first. PM asks me to discuss my issue. I bring up a severe
work issue, that is giving me great pain and anxiety, something that
threatens my very livelihood. I feel as if I have no control over my
life, there is nothing I can do to resolve the issue. I feel like an animal trapped in
The PM challenges me, saying I do not really want to solve this issue.
He says I lived with it already I can keep going on. I insist that I do
want to deal with it. My face feels flushed. I start moving my hand up
and down and the PM tells me to keep doing that. To not move the rest
of my body. The other members start with the field of acknowledgement.
My face feels flushed and warm. My body feels nothing. They keep
encouraging me. My head gets lower, I feel my eyes watering. My face
almost feels like it is numb like in a cloud.
They tell me
to get into
the feeling. I try but nothing happens. I really am in a lot of pain
and misery over this issue and other issues. But I cannot
into it. I feel disappointed. I also feel fear in going too far. I feel
I let the group down. After a while I go back to normal. We move on to
the other members and their issues. PM tells me it was productive and a
I am anxious to move forward. I just hope I can do it. I do not want to
go through life with these issues hanging over my head.
I read a great quote the other day, "If someone offered you a pill that
would make you permanently happy, you would be well advised to run fast
and run far. Emotion is a compass that tells us what to do, and a
compass that is perpetually stuck on north is worthless." I immediately
thought of Ed and TT when I read this. Ed says that all emotions are
good they are there for a reason. I just need to get my compass working
you for sharing your process.
You might consider taking your feelings about <animal in a
cage> to Tribe.
Stan Grof visits my city and I attend his Breathwork Workshop.
Prior to attending, I do not realize what a "big deal" it is to do
Breathwork with Stan "on the floor".
I do realize that when I see that 100+ attend from all over the US,
Canada, Mexico, Europe.
He speaks Thursday & Friday eves, the Breathwork is Saturday,
then he speaks again Sunday.
I find it fascinating and listen for 6+ hours to a psychiatrist with
60-years of healing experience.
He says there is no reason to live life with profound mental issues
when Breathwork can heal them.
This, my sixth Breathwork, is unremarkable, like the others. I finish
with a deep sense of relaxation.
I listen carefully to Stan and conclude (1) this weekend I experience
exactly what my inner healer wants me to experience. (2) At my next
Breathwork, instead of apprehension, I bring belief the event is a safe
place for me to open and heal.
Global Holotropic Breathwork Day is Sat. April, 9th, 2016. I have a
prior commitment and am unable to do Breathwork on that day.
I share a photo of Stan I took at this weekend's event.
My trading is going well. I am in sync with my model and it feels good.
you for sharing
and the Struggle for Broccoli Supremacy
According to your answer of SVO-p and children of the 20th of january,
I wonder how to teach a child to eat some broccoli and vegetables in
the intimacy centric model.
That's what usually happens:
me: "hmmmm, Here are some vegetables: carrots, soya bean sprouts and
broccoli, good for health, full of fibers and antioxidant..."
he: "beurk, I don't want to eat that..."
me: "they are good..."
he:"No I don't like vegetables..."
me" taste it, you have not even tasted and you say that you don't like
he:" NOOO! I want some steak and french fries!!
me:"too much meat is not that good for health, and yesterday you had
already some steak and french fries."
he: "so I want some pizza!!
me:" pffffffffff, you are getting on my nerves!! 4 days ago you already
had some pizza!! eating varied is good for health!!
me: "taste it, you may like it after tasting it. There's nothing else
to eat today.
he after tasting it : ok, yest, it' not that bad but I don't like it
he eats the half of his slate.
How may I react in the intimacy centric model??
you for raising
I gather you wish to sell your child on a vegetarian diet.
You might consider taking your feelings about <wanting to force
child to eat vegetables> to Tribe.
Your current method teaches your child how to defend against bullying
and manipulation - and ultimately how to bully and manipulate
Following an intimacy-centric line ...
Parent: Here we have some vegetables, including broccoli.
Child: I don't like vegetables, especially broccoli
Parent: Thank you for telling me how you feel. I wonder if
can tell me more about how you don't like vegetables.
Child: I just don't like them. I want steak and French fries.
Parent: Thank you. I wonder if you can tell me more.
Child: I know what I want and I don't think you know what I want and I
don't think you care what I want. You just want to force me
it your way.
Parent: Thank you for telling me, for sharing your feelings
Child: Now you sound like you care about me more than you care about
telling me how to eat.
Parent: I want to listen to your feelings. I also want to
my opinions about food - and then I want to
support you in making your own decisions about what you eat.
Child: I feel like you care about me. I guess I can try the
More On Day
Dear Mr Seykota,
I have read that you consider day trading "For when you want to
suppress your existential blues with financial emergency and you don't
want to bother going out to a casino".
Since I have learnt (and everyday is learning), to respond to rather
than anticipate the market, I find that the daily time-frame is the right one
to maintain my dialog with the market.
If I try to anticipate the market, I often end up in financial
emergency, but if I just respond to the market, I get into a dialogue,
that if performed on a longer time-frame (say weeks or months), would
feel, for me at least, more akin to communicating via messages in a
bottle rather than via spoken words.
I have developed a discretionary day-trading methodology, applied to
e-mini s&p500 futures (no option selling) ...
My methodology (discretionary), my time-frame (daily) and my style
(contrarian-biased although I am learning to better trend follow), make
me very different from you in trading, but my focus on feelings and
responses make me very close too.
Would you consider mentoring me in areas where I feel unable to move my rocks
(e.g. increasing size)?
you for reaching
out to me.
I wonder what kind of increasing-size Rocks you feel unable to move
I now have <managing other peoples' feelings> and
process run out of control> on my list for next Yribe.
FAQ: "People must demonstrate willingness and motivation to attend my
I ask people joining our tribe to do the following
* Buy and read the book "The Trading Tribe"
* Read the material on the TTP extensions.
* Commit to report all hot seats to FAQ
* Follow the full process including rocks / TTP extensions.
I hold the new members to these commitments.
I don't require an particular commitment to regular attendance at Tribe
I speak to new members to ensure that they are able to follow the
concepts and that they want to follow the process rather than, say,
chat about hot stocks.
One person told me that he reads the material about risk management on
FAQ and therefore he holds 4 stocks at one time, each at 25% of his
equity. He explains "Ed says you should have 25% on any one position".
He bases this, he explains, on the coin flipping exercise. He also says
he wants to attend Tribe so he can listen to "great traders" and get
trading tips. I do not allow him to join our Tribe.
I recall that you have a fairly substantial fee for your workshops,
particularly the first one, though I think you could afford to put them
on for free. I remember you saying that this helps achieve two things:
a degree of commitment, and a degree of capability.
I recall reports where people who fail to show up at your Tribe lose
permission to attend future Tribe meetings.
When I join the Tribe here no-one follows the rocks process. No-one is
doing even the original hot seat process. The "hot seats" seem more
like meditating or yoga. Some of the original members leave within a
few months after I join.
We institute a more FAQ-compliant process. New members join and some
have great success. But still some old members do not like the TTP
extensions. One does only one rocks process ever; another never does
it. Some don't show up reliably.
I see that results relate directly to showing up and following the
process. Intentions = Results.
I start to feel I need to restart the Tribe from scratch with, for all
members new and old, the rules above and additional ground rules:
* Show up reliably. If you /have/ to be somewhere else, OK. But not "a
better offer came up" or "I didn't feel like it".
* Follow the full process including TTP extensions.
I probably need a new venue as the member in whose home we run the
Tribe does not like the rocks process. He, along with the other
members, will be welcome to join the new Tribe, if he commits to
following the ground rules.
I have found the venue I need. I like the location, which is more
convenient than the current one. I will pay for it and others can
contribute voluntarily if they wish. This will not be a condition of
If others want to continue the old Tribe at the old location with a
process of their choice, they can do that.
I think about this plan for a few months now. I decide to do
this. Now I plan how to execute it. I have a draft plan.
you for sharing
your process and for exercising discipline, choosing the proactive
response over the medicinal response.
Bun in the
My wife and I continue in our process of conceiving a child.
feel a wide range of feelings. Sometimes I feel happy, other
times I feel fear. Feelings of jealousy directed toward my
child bother me most. I feel afraid these feelings will
how to talk to, treat and interact with my child. I feel
that I also feel jealous that my child may have an upbringing way
better than mine.
My wife grows up totally different than me, her parents raise her
without the fear of corporal punishment. I just recently give
the idea I do not want to use physical or verbal abuse as a tool for
discipline. I grow up in a house where "No" was said a
In response my wife makes comment "a child should not hear "No" growing
up (threats to safety not included) because you hear enough "No's"when
you grow up.
I struggle with this statement at first but grow to love it and accept
it in my philosophy. I do wonder how I can promote self
confidence and personal sovereignty with my children without spoiling
them or teaching them entitlement to special treatment (I
them to feel deserving of success in all facets family, health, wealth
Now instead of my parents telling me "No" I have a voice in my head
that tells me "No". It functions as a good risk management
but something about it brings me back to the 7 year old who just wants
a Batman action figure and gets told "no" by his parents, steals one
from his classmate and receives corporal punishment when my parents
I know within myself I still struggle with my personal sovereignty and
feeling ok with winning and the feelings that come with it.
I worry about the rocks I may pass down.
you for sharing
your process and for caring to think about these issues on behalf of
More on Anger
Thank you for the insight on the anger.
Yes anger is a complex feeling to cover deeper fear. Being able to pin
point that exact feeling timely needs more willingness and Tribe work.
you for sharing
You might also consider the positive intention of anger - and the
difference between anger and violence.
Wants a Job
in the US:
Trend Trading or Blackjack
Hello Mr. Seykota,
I know nothing that can feed myself but trend following and blackjack.
I want to find a job in the US in order to stay here with my girlfriend.
I got a Master of Finance degree from a US school, but I don't like
almost everything learned from the school, because it's opposite to
The US government want a foreigner to find a job relevant to his major,
it's a must if he want to stay in the US.
I will be greatly thankful if you can give any advice. I want to find a
job that can make my trend following experience or my blackjack
counting skill useful.
But it seems neither of them can give me a job. I don't care much about
the salary. I just need a legal status to stay here with my girlfriend.
By the way, we are not prepared to get married yet, so for now,
marriage is not my consideration. Thank you.
you for raising
You might engage a career in trend following by developing a system and
You might engage a career in blackjack by working for a casino;
counting doesn't work against a multi-deck boot.
You might consider taking your feelings about
Tribe as an entry point.
TSP - Trading
I stumble upon your TSP page and decide to give it a try. So I guess
this email finds its way to you on this matter more than 10 years late.
I run the backtest and the optimization of the simple exponential
crossover system on excel and I duplicate the results to the penny.
The attach excel "live" document where the input can be changed to get
I run it on excel because I dont have much programming skills, but
doing this allows me to get a feel of the numbers.
Being 10 years late in discovering your TSP page allows me to do a
forward test of the optimized system from 2005 to 2016.
For the last 10 years, the highest Bliss setting is 180/85.
Thank you for your guidance in your website.
you for sharing
your process and your recent results.
Finally Pays Off
I drove my wife crazy with all the TTP stuff (beating drums and talking
about rocks :)) I was involved in over the years.
However it's now years later and I notice she's now attracted to an
emotionally healthy parenting style with our toddler and is regularly
spamming me with respective articles.
For example: http://www.ahaparenting.com.
We are creating new patterns with this generation.
Best to you and the Tribe.
you for sharing your process and for acknowledging the work.
Thank you for your commitment to conscious parenting.
Your report moves me to feel deep joy and satisfaction.
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