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from Ed in Red)
Fri, 20 Aug
My recent Hot Seat issue regarded my relationship to my college age son.
As his father
I was feeling the anxiety of not being able to have greater influence in
his life. I was seeing him making a series of bad choices that have
impacted him negatively. My view was that his life is devolving into
chaos and I was powerless to alter his path.
Tribe members immediately identified an entry point as I reached out
hands while trying to describe how out of reach my son feels.
identified four forms that I had acted out, each physically distinct
from the others. Then the Tribe had me recreate each one to test that I
could recall them. The next step was to combine all four forms into one
form. Confusion accompanied this step as my conscious mind grasped with
different ways to put all these forms together.
conscious mind from the need to know how to do this was the key.
Suspending judgment about there being a right way to do this opened me
up to being in the moment. Then it became an exercise in trend following
and faith that my body would do the right thing.
Being in the
moment opened me up to following whatever physical sensations my body
was suggesting. My actions were as much a surprise to me as to the
tremendous energy emanating from the receiving members of the Tribe.
This elevated my energy as a sender. At its peak there was a sensation
that there was no distinction between the receivers and me
as the sender. In other words, a sense of oneness. This occurred during
the climax of the four forms fusing into one.
conclusion I was elated and exhausted. There was a shift in me that was
inexplicable. The Tribe instructed me to enter back into the four forms.
I was unable to do so, they had dissolved. I had made an attempt to
recreate each but there was no energy in them. I was so elated at the
conclusion that I made a victory lap around the room doing "high
fives" with each member of the Tribe. I had never felt so close to
my fellow Tribe members.
Fred was at work during my session. During "check-in" another
Tribe member had expressed a troubling situation his son was in and the
difficulty in resolving this because of conflicts with his ex-wife (the
boys mother). Well during my session the ex-wife had called him. He
returned the call during the break. He reported to the Tribe that his
ex-wife had suddenly taken a dramatic change of tact regarding the
situation and was willing to cooperate. He could not remember this ever
happening in the past and attributed it to Fred opening up during my
My relationship with my son has had equally dramatic changes in the
weeks that followed. Our interaction has lost all of its emotional
His walls have
all come down. He seems to be very comfortable in my company and talks
about things that would have been taboo in the past. I don't feel the
need to preach to him and parent him. He calls me more often and shares
personal experiences. He has since made a series of decisions that seem
very constructive to me, all on his own. There is a detachment in me
that is actually productive. It comes from the primary lesson learned in
my hot seat session. The lesson is that he is an adult and out of my
reach. I no longer have influence over him. My hot seat experience
allowed this understanding to be installed not at an intellectual level
but deeply into my subconscious where there can be congruence and
Fri, 20 Aug
I come to your site via the Market Wizards series. I have little
experience, little money and very little knowledge. However ...
I'm looking for TTP fans in Fargo. My intent is to start a Tribe here.
May I have your blessing to do so and do you have any recommendations on
attracting fellow fans of TTP?
My intent is to follow a path that I sense is correct instead of trying
to forge my own path.
Fargo, North Dakota
are on the Directory Page
Street, looking East
you take a map of the United States
fold it in the middle,
edge against western,
crease it sharply,
in the crease is Fargo."
-- Travels with Charley
Fri, 20 Aug
Hi Ed !
Greetings ... Just thought I would let you know that I have gained
tremendous insights from the FAQ posts and have been able to incorporate
many ideas into my own trading which is doing quite well.
You frequently ask readers to consider the level of volatility they are
willing to accept in their trading before implementing a trading system
which generates superior returns.
My question is, do you think traders who operate at or close to optimal
risk levels actually enjoy the roller-coaster ride of volatility, or do
they merely accept that it is part of the process of pursuing outsized
people ride roller-coasters, safely, as part of their work-a-day
living. Others seek them out, just for the thrills.
Thu, 19 Aug
I am hunted by the future
Will the future be my past?
Or is time a fade-out picture
Of my everlasting cast?
Prism of Life
I become increasingly aware of my real, hidden intentions.
On one hand I
am blessed with a good intellect and I feel I have potential to achieve
a lot of things on the professional side of life.
On the other
hand, I am not satisfied with playing the role of the smart one and I am
quite frustrated with the common expectations of family and society to
always do and achieve more, materially speaking.
While I feel I
can follow this path and I have been doing so for almost my whole life,
I also feel like betraying myself.
I am hunted
by strange fears of the non-existing future and I prefer not to ignore
them and I sabotage a lot of enterprises right at point that success
becomes a real possibility.
can take your fears into TTP and convert them to allies before they
convert you to an actor in their drama.
Tue, 17 Aug
I'm very curious about your take on these techniques and methods. Of
interest is the apparent focus on 'unwanted' feelings.
does not endorse people or methods. TTP seems to resonate with
most paths to spiritual growth and prosperity.
views all feelings as useful and aims to reframe the ones we do not like
from adversaries to allies. We do not attempt to rid ourselves of
unwanted feelings; we learn to appreciate them and put them to good use
on our emotional control panels.
Tue, 17 Aug
Breathwork and Mandala
I want to share my Mandala with you from my first holotropic breathing
experience. I hope you’re doing well and on the path to realize your
People who commit to a series of Breathwork sessions (or to TTP) tend to
observe a shift in consciousness from personal drama to personal
consciousness to global consciousness.
This evolution tends to show up in post-session drawings (Grof has a
history as a cartoonist so he likes to draw.)
The drawings of the mystics who establish this and that religion tend to
look similar, geometrical and symmetrical.
Mon, 16 Aug
Before Swine /
Wow ... [getting to] level 33 on Pearls!
feeling that complete.
I feel something similar to a bowel movement in my chest as I squeeze
out "would, could, should" conditionals from my vocabulary. I
wonder about visceral vocabulary storage. This conditional-ectomy
removes some of the subtlety from speech. Directness remains. I describe
what awareness experiences directly.
I admire your precise definition of Fred: a feelings pump. Not feelings;
not a being with benign or malignant intent, simply a feelings pump.
I notice many breakouts fail and buying new highs results in attrition
I feel awkward writing this way, like a carpenter who is not using all
this tools. I know this is a direct way to think, talk, write, and I am
retraining vocabulary habits.
Pearls game does not seem to get any harder after level 25 or so.
first, speaking in SVO-p can feel awkward, as you find some things
are just plain hard to say.
of these very things, however, turn out to be mythical thinking, and /
or ways to avoid taking responsibility.
do lunch sometime, puts the other person off into the non-existing
avoids the responsible form: I don't want to deal with you.
was set up as our policy to charge a 15% re-stocking fee, avoids
responsibility. We charge you 15% for returning merchandise,
is clear and direct.
it doesn't flow easily into SVO-p, it might not be clear thinking in the
Mon, 16 Aug
Ed Says: Locating, developing and merging Forms is
an art form.
I understand, I'm a witness at the session where it occurs, when (name)
merges two forms together.
A Polar Form may occur at an opposite points
around a drama cycle. Or it may occur as a different existence at the
same point in the drama.
Please elaborate and /or post a sample of your latest experience.
Skillful receivers can create a space into which
the forms emerge.
I'm a skilful receiver.
Mon, 16 Aug
Three of our SJ tribe members including myself experience a holotropic
breathwork session Saturday 8/14 in Berkeley, CA.
I intend to share my experiences with FAQ to help and inspire. My
intense feeling of profoundness is impossible to convey in words, yet it
motivates me to write this long piece.
If my writing below inspires a twinge of interest to FAQ readers, read
at least one of the books I mention below, find a workshop with
certified Grof instructors, audit them as to how they create a trusting
and nurturing space, avoid creating expectations or TTP the feelings
behind them (TTP entry points) to let them pass away, and commit fully
to breathing during your workshop. For me it is nothing less than one of
the two most profound experiences of my life, both of which are
In the first session, I sit for two other tribe members since the
workshop has an odd number of participants. Sitting for breathers is
somewhat like acting as receiver in a TTP session: allow the breather
his/her full experience in whatever form it takes. Be an intentionally
supportive, caring and attentive witness to what can be extremely
intimate experiences for the breather. I get tissues and water when
requested, gently remind breathers to deepen their breath through gentle
touch on the shoulder when necessary, and move/adjust pillows when
necessary as movement during Breathwork is common. If a breather
requests any body contact or touch, I provide. This is sitting in
holotropic Breathwork, no more. Facilitators, with their experience and
training, offer more intense and direct support and help. Facilitators
help mirror other aspects of TTP receiving like encouraging the breather
to intensify or “work into” feelings/blockages by intensifying the
breath and offering something different: focused bodywork which I
Music plays during the session for the entire session. The music varies
from world beat, African, tribal, Indian (India), American Indian, to
even a John Williams type piece. The tempo varies from intense drumming
to instrumental Enya – like ethereal. When sitting, I initially felt
the music interferes with a “pure” experience using no sound.
However, when I breathe I find the music totally supportive and
instrumental – pun intended - to the process helping pace my
experience – like riding trend.
Both tribe members have dramatically different sessions which I support
and bear witness. The sitting portion has intensity as well given my
strong focus on attentiveness to my breathers. Indeed, one tribe member’s
session lasts for a little over three hours.
Lunch occurs after the first session of Breathwork, but I eat only a
small portion. Too much food can interfere with the Breathwork process.
I go for a 15 minute walk before as I feel nervous butterflies and wish
to get active after 3 hours mostly sitting.
Lacking expectations and feeling nervous, I commit fully to breathing
during the session and have one of the most profound spiritual
experiences of my life. I feel amazed and awed by the power of
commitment to the breath and the profound change my state of
consciousness I experience.
I share some personal highlights of my experience. The other two members
have unique experiences as well.
I commit and breathe deeper, fuller and more sustained than I have in my
life. At some point I begin to feel giddy and laugh - though I remember
holding back from letting go and really belly laughing (I breathe into
that holding back next time). My nervousness goes away at the same time
as the laughter. I breathe deeper and feel something building and
propelling me forward. I experience the edge of sheer, concentrated
terror in its purest form. It feels like pure spiritual terror of
letting go of everything. The terror is completely real in depth and
intensity. Despite my deep holotropic state, I stop breathing and
attempt to sit up. TTP type AHA's flood into me. In fact maybe it’s
not so much that they flood into me as I move into aha space and just
notice them all around me – completely immersed in aha.
I immediately feel profound deep respect and awe for yogi’s, other
enlightened persons or anyone that chooses to embrace and move through
this terror. At that point I feel panic and choose to go no further.
Part of me feels like stopping Breathwork. I raise my hand sitting up to
call my facilitators and they are already on their way. I speak with
them for a moment about my experience and one suggests going back into
the breath and building into the feelings slowly rather than with speed.
Around this time I gain an internal aha that I can work/clear other
parts that can lead up to the aforementioned terror. Cool, my own guide!
For the moment, I choose to avoid the intense feeling of terror.
I notice tension and pain in my jaw as I breathe strongly. I notice
during my breathing that I can breathe forcefully and deeply (the first
way I started) which led to jaw pain and tension. I also notice that I
can breathe with a relaxed jaw and less forcefully. Choice! Yet, I
naturally seem to return to this tense/painful jaw breathing method. So
I go with that as my form. With difficulty, I speak to my facilitators
who now stay with me. They suggest building into the pain with the
breath. The tribal music playing and crescendo-ing in the background
naturally makes it easy. The jaw tension and pain is intense, raw, and
brutal. While I work into it, one of the facilitators puts their hands
on my face around my jaw and chin to focus my attention and provide
resistance to the movement of my jaw. This further focuses me and allows
me to really push my jaw and intensify into their opposing force. As I
do this, I notice that I cannot feel my feet/legs/arms. I feel my hands
At some point the feelings of intensifying the jaw pain/tensions
decrease and more AHA's roar into my consciousness. I have intense
feelings of love for my wife and wishing for her to be right above me
helping with the directed bodywork on my face. I feel deep, deep
appreciation for my facilitators help but I long for my wife. I feel a
deep spiritual connection to her. I never cry in “public” but tears
began streaming down the side of my face as I lay on my back. Tears,
tears and more tears. I feel pain expressing and releasing through the
tears. I feel a protector in the background feeling a little self
conscious about my crying, but it moves away whenever I think of my wife
which causes more tears to stream. The process feels cathartic,
cleansing and good. Part of me wishes to have my sitter get up and get
my cell phone to call her and tell her how much I love her – my sitter
must dial as I cannot feel my arms. I let the thoughts pass. I now know
how I wish to draw –or rather write - my Mandala – a process that
occurs after Breathwork completes.
My tears fade after some time and I enter a state of profound
relaxation, the depth of which is totally new. I could lie in that state
for long, long, long periods of time. It felt so so good. My jaw felt
sore but less tense, yet, I know I am finished for this session. The
profound state of relaxation tells me so. As I come out of this state, I
learn my Breathwork lasts for 2.5 hours. It feels like 20 minutes
The facilitators at the workshop are just fantastically supportive,
loving, focused and dedicated. This is absolutely KEY to the process
when really intensifying blockages. I understand the importance of
avoiding solo Breathwork. This is really deep stuff and having a helping
and experienced soul nearby is key. Individual attention during certain
situations is critical.
Upon completion of Breathwork, I feel extremely relaxed, the most
relaxed in months and months. I feel very light. I feel dazed but with
clarity. I feel very connected with everyone (7 people total including
facilitators) in the group. I feel very calm. I have difficulty driving
home supporting my experience of a deep spiritual state.
Over the next few days, I notice closer bond to my wife. I notice I
remain considerably calmer and more detached in various “stress”
creating life situations. I notice my jaw a lot more, in fact all the
time like a stress barometer. I am hyper aware of the state of my jaw. I
notice when I train at the gym that I don’t tense my jaw or clamp down
with my teeth when lifting heavy weight the first day after Breathwork.
This is a huge change. I enjoy lifting as I have for 15 years. A part of
me wonders if some part of my lifting commitment comes from the fact
that it allowed me to clamp and tense my jaw - a very interesting
observation. I believe there may be a bit of truth to this. I believe
there are other strong parts to my lifting commitment as well.
I find the same jaw tenseness when I trade and as I experience other
stressors. As I work through the tense-ness in my jaw with Breathwork, I
hope to release and dissolve it all. I go where it takes me.
Monday’s trading after the Saturday workshop is excellent. Less drama,
more focus on system execution, calmer feelings, and detachment. An
example, I receive a lot of skid into a position that I bet heavier than
my current level of a “normal” bet size. I have concern for the
large amount of skid but I stay calm and focused. I recheck / change
stop levels based on the strength of the position and hold the entire
position. Before this weekend, I imagine that very different and with a
lot more stress and drama. If I get stopped out, I re-enter at the high
and that’s cool too. I stay with the process. What big noticeable help
I receive from my commitment to Breathwork.
After the workshop, I have a much deeper understanding of TTP. My
practice and commitment to TTP every week for the past fifteen months
and attending the first TTP workshop turbo charges my Breathwork
experience. I really feel at home in breath work's non-ordinary
consciousness state. I feel comfortable working with blockages (except
the spiritual terror- though I commit to pass through it). I feel
comfortable going with what presents and intensifying the feeling/form.
Further, I feel a strong bond with my tribe members who shared and
supported my experience as I shared and supported theirs.
Ed - Thank you for suggesting Grof's "The Adventure of Self
Discovery” to me eight years ago when I come to see you during a big
drawdown. Now, the timing is right for my breakout.
Another book that I recommend is "The Breathwork Experience"
by Kylea Taylor. Grof certifies her. Her book distills the essence of
Breathwork, and it is a lighter read than Grof for those that wish that
type of introduction.
I feel strongly that directed bodywork has a place in TTP after
experiencing it firsthand Saturday in my holotropic Breathwork
experience. I take this to the San Jose Tribe. We work with it and
report back. I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions, if any, on the
development of this as a TTP tool.
I use Breathwork now on a consistent and regular basis as part of my
total development as spiritual being, husband, and trader.
seems resonant with most forms of spiritual growth including Holotropic
(seeking wholeness) exercises are inherently and purposefully
non-directive and non-conscious.
tends to gravitate toward whatever issues you have active at the time of
might try alternating HB and TTP - HB can get you deep into your
subconscious. TTP and tease out issues for HB and also help you
integrate the insights with CM.
are wise to practice HB with a skillful practitioner. Purposeful
hyperventilation occasions alkalosis, and vasoconstriction of the
cerebral cortex and (note for pregnant women) placenta.
may alter perceptions of space and time - even hours after the process -
so be very careful around machinery, especially automobiles -
particularly if some of your issues are still alive.
might want to camp out at a walking distance from the event, until the
Tue, 17 Aug 2004
Dear Ed ,
I initially looked at your site to gain more trading knowledge and
expected to find yet another trade entry weighted site but being a curious
scientist mind I ended up reading a lot of your Radial Momentum theory and
I have reached
the conclusion that market prediction math is a futile approach. It
appears that the methods of managing the position, position size and
system to psychology alignment appear to be far larger variables that can
1) As one of my modules I have been trying to research advanced position
sizing techniques. Currently, I am using a basic volatily based ATR system
to set STOPS with a % fractional capital approach to set Risk and finally
ATR and %fractional to set Pos. Size. Currently, as the % fraction of
Capital remains constant (say 1%) ATR is what varies the Position Size.
I have experimented with tracking win / loss expectancy to try and alter
the % fraction and maximize the efficiency of the trading system and I
wish to obtain further information on what may be researched thus far. Do
you have any references that you can steer me towards?
2) I really like what you have done with the RMT (radial mom theory)
and in typical form I see you have like many greats before you encountered
resistance from minds that need to protect their own ego of their
I don't have a
lot of time to look at it but can say it makes al ot of sense to me both
logically and through the practical results u conducted trying to
eliminate the momentum component. In fact you failed to disprove your
theory which was cool .
I can't help but think the way to approach combating this 200 year old
mind set is to in fact build product with this new theory that is not
supposed to work or to make improvements to designs that are using the old
theory and therefore haven't maximized efficiency.
3) Fred - As most of us who are fascinated with the world we experience I
saw your theory of FRED. Some day I may send you the work I have done in
this area but I can say that your observations about our construct are
very accurate (in my opinion).
I would also like to thank you in making the site and contributing to
academia thinks about me is none of my businesses.
you want to worry about what others think about you, become a politician -
at least until the election season passes.
Tube-and-Cone experiment and the Business-Card-Levitator experiment are
products such as you suggest.
physics does not account for their behavior; Radial Momentum Theory does.
more on Radial Momentum, see www.radialmomentum.com
Mon, 16 Aug 2004
At My Wit's
I'm at my wits end. I don't know what to do. I need re-training. My bad
habits are driving me absolutely crazy.
I day-trade and long-term trade (I like both). Irrespective of the
instruments and the timeframe I see opportunities on all of them. Time
after time after time I find some excuse not to enter and they all pass me
by. My opportunity costs are greater than the US debt.
It's like there are two parts of me. One wants me to feel safe and urges
and urges not to enter or finds excuses to avoid, etc. This part of me is
like a well-meaning, over-protective mother. We'll call this part
The other part of me realizes the risk and is willing to take it, is
willing to pay the price. It's confident and knows it can handle any
situation. It doesn't panic, is observant, logical, reasonable.
We'll call this part "Me."
I inevitably give into the "mother" voice and stay out of the
opportunities. 75% of the time my analysis and research are correct and Me
Or, if I do enter, it's because "mother" feels it's safe. I
usually take a small loss to get out because the analysis was incorrect.
These small losses are adding up and destroying my "net,"
myself-confidence, and my desire to trade.
I'm at my wit's end, Ed.
What the h--- am I doing? What the h--- is going on with me? Where is
the interplay between Fred and CM? I can't identify anything in this
situation. I "feel" frustrated, angry, like striking out, like
screaming, like hurting.
fish does not see the water and you do not see your own drama.
might take what's left of your wits to a tribe meeting. Your
receivers can help you see your drama, experience it and convert its
elements from adversaries into allies on your emotional control panel.
of Upset, Discontent
pretty good entry points for TTP
Mon, 16 Aug 2004
on August 19th
Great reply to [Name] about taxes (In a discussion about fair taxation, Ed
Says: Life is fundamentally unfair. If life were fair, you'd look
and act like me. That's likely enough to make you give up all your
ideas that fair is attainable or desirable. People who say they want
fair, often actually just want your stuff."
I won’t be able to make the tribe meeting this Thursday.
Please tell everybody to feel the feelings.
might consider migrating your note into SVO-p:
I won't be able to attend.
Conjunction: I will not be able to attend.
Tense: I am not able to attend.
choose to not attend.
Note: In the
last sentence, you take responsibility and announce your choice.
Note: To hide
your intentions, avoid responsibility, postpone commitment, mislead people
etc., migrate your grammar away from SVO-p. The opposite of SVO-p is
Lawschoolish, or Las Goulash depending on how you like to curl your
lip. South of the border, it's El Estofado or El Estupido.
Mon, 16 Aug 2004
Dear Mr. Seykota,
Can you please elaborate on your Jul 26 post, that TTP
suspends belief in
the JCT trilogy: judgment, causality and time.
I can understand the first two, but what do you mean by suspending belief
in time? That time itself doesn't exist if change is absent? Or that the
future is non-existent? Or something else?
We live in a
continually evolving, self - computing moment of now. We have no access to
the future or the past. Our notions of future and past all reside in
the now, along with everything else. Time is a notion that connects two
Belief in time
allows people to avoid taking responsibility, and enables derivative myths
such as causality, guilt and blame that provide bases for organizing
As a society
matures and control centralizes, these myths become increasingly important
show signs of resisting the cultural myths - by displaying anxiety -
typically receive attitudinal adjustors such as Ritalin.
People who live
in the myth commonly speak of time as a substance. They save it, make it
last forever, bottle it up, spend it, go through it, share it, take it up
and waste it.
In TTP framing,
it's all about how you choose to populate your moment of now. In
time-centric framing, its all about Time in a Bottle.
In A Bottle
Words and Music by Jim Croce
Copyright © 1975 Jim Croce,
If I could save time in a bottle
The first thing that I'd like to do
Is to save every day
Till Eternity passes away
Just to spend them with you
If I could make days last forever
If words could make wishes come true
I'd save every day like a treasure and then,
Again, I would spend them with you
But there never seems to be enough time
To do the things you want to do
Once you find them
I've looked around enough to know
That you're the one I want to go
Through time with
If I had a box just for wishes
And dreams that had never come true
The box would be empty
Except for the memory
Of how they were answered by you
But there never seems to be enough time
To do the things you want to do
Once you find them
I've looked around enough to know
That you're the one I want to go
Through time with.
Sun, 15 Aug 2004
The Montana State Department of Fish and Wildlife is advising golfers to
take extra precautions and be on the alert for bears while in the
Gallatin, Helena and Lewis and Clark National Forests golf courses.
They advise golfers to wear noise-producing devices such as little bells
on their clothing to alert, but not startle the bears unexpectedly.
They also advise you to carry pepper spray in case of an encounter with a
bear. It is also a good idea to watch for signs of bear activity.
Golfers should be able to recognize the difference between black bear and
grizzly bear droppings on the golf course. Black bear droppings are
smaller and contain berries and possibly squirrel fur.
Grizzly bear droppings have bells in them and smell like pepper spray.
.... It might take a few recursions to get the bugs out of this system.
things keep showing up
let you know
system is just not working
Sun, 15 Aug 2004
Can you give me more information for the "Celebration" picture
posted Sun 22 Feb, 2004? I might be interested in using it for something
and didn't want to infringe on any copyrights or trademarks.
might ask the owner, directly, for permission. Click on the reference URL
below the clip you like.
you intend to use a clip
a commercial product.
permission and give credit
maybe pay a licensing fee.
you intend to use it
non-profit or educational purposes
remove it immediately
history includes two instances
people requesting deletion of clips.
report a welcome increase in traffic
Sun, 15 Aug 2004
Touch with a Contributor
If I am interested to get in touch with the author of a particular post
what are the protocols I need to follow? Thank you.
does not publish the identity of contributors or reveal personal
information (even if you have a really, really good reason). See
Sun, 15 Aug 2004
It occurs to me that the conclusion of the torch relay at the Athens
Olympics beautifully underscores the poetic dimensions of receiving and
One step at at a
time, the sender begins to climb up the stairs to the heavens and brings
closer and closer the fire of the gods to the messenger. In turn, the
ultimate torch bearer, the receiver, slowly bows its head to the earth.
With legs erect,
the pivoted upper body of the messenger gracefully follows its trajectory
to receive the athlete's gift.
Reaching the top
of the steps the athlete stands still on the open platform while the
messenger's head bears down on the athlete as if to hear the secretes of
the world. In the moment that follows the stillness of both the sender and
the receiver, the sender offers the receiver humanity's ultimate gesture
of creation and destruction.
receives the gift, quietly and unobtrusively, and in the darkness that
surrounded us all, lifts its head, shoulders and trunk and puffs its
divine breath on the fire to make it glow and light the world. The
receiver stands erect and burning and flickering, lighting and charging,
offers the fire of the world to the gods.
In my estimation, this opening ceremony ranks as the best in recent
memory. The particular pleasure one derives out of watching the artistic
creations, i.e. creative results, is also a testimony to the beauty,
power, and wonderful significance of design intentions.
the limit, senders and receivers converge.
sends heat and light
Sun, 15 Aug 2004
I tend to feel nervous & anxious about participating in social
settings, which are new to me.
Do you think this represents a reasonable entry into TTP?
Thanks for your time.
can work as an entry point for TTP.
is optional, occasionally counterproductive.
do not claim to own any time, and do not think it even exists, so I have
some reluctance to accepting your thanks for giving you some.
case you are acknowledging me for being here, in the now, with you, about
your nervousness and anxiety, I accept your acknowledgment.
Sun, 15 Aug 2004
of Hot Seat Experience
My first Hot Seat experience attached. THANK YOU!
It’s been ten days since my first hot seat. Seems all I want to do is
sleep and process at the subconscious level. A lot of dreams. The first
couple of days I would feel physical pains – throat, chest, back, teeth
– now I feel those no longer. Now I don’t giggle as I did in Incline
Village. Now I have tears in my eyes – of joy, mostly.
My waking hours have been insightful, peaceful, happy. I am experiencing a
high level of clarity, awareness, and an ease of commitment (and
follow-up) that I am not used to. I am glad to see that I haven’t lost
the Aha! I achieved ten days ago. I was terrified that I might lose it the
next day, as has been the case with most of my past insights.
· First thing in the morning, I step outside and I realize what a
beautiful day it is. The world is more beautiful and life more worthy.
· I am on the treadmill every morning. I renew my commitment to lose 15
pounds in 6 months. So far, on task.
· I no longer am interested in writing options and on betting on a
reversal to the mean. I now avoid very short-term trading and wait, with
joy, for a good signal of what might be a worthwhile move.
· I look at the NASDAQ chart for the last 10 years, I step a few feet
away from the screen and I see clearly that the index has always trended.
So much for my old argumentation and belief that the market spends 85% of
its time in a trading range. I am thinking: “when you know how to know,
you know that the market always trends. It just depends on your
perspective and time frame. Time is the ultimate elusive factor anyway.”
· Money does not mean ‘what it can buy’ to me any longer. I am not as
attached to it as I used to be. I have hope that soon I will achieve the
dispassion of the master trader toward taking a loss. This might take a
couple of hot seats.
· I seem to have a better awareness of why I am clinging to the zero
equity line. It has to do with my father’s losing everything in 1985 and
dying near broke in 1996. Another entry point into TTP for me.
· My one-up-one-down relationship with the market trend is dissolving. It
is becoming more of a relationship of cooperation and understanding to
create the right livelihood for me than an oppressive, dominant
· I feel more at ease with not knowing things with certainty and not
controlling events and outcomes. I realize now that when I know how to
know something, I will know it. And when I don’t, it’s okay not to
· I no longer want to write the rules, I just want to go with the flow.
· I understand now that three people can look at the same chart and one
see an uptrend, one see a downtrend, and one see it sideways … and all
be right. It all depends on their styles and their timeframes. The idea is
really to have a money management system (total position size, individual
bet size, stop) that matches one’s style / timeframe and to stick to it.
· I read the TTP FAQ and I understand it better.
· I see trend-following everywhere: Life, business, markets. It strikes
me how similar trend-following trading is to making a relationship work or
to running a multi-billion dollar computer system or capital equipment
manufacturer. The similarities are dramatic. A successful trader is a
successful lover and a successful CEO.
My First Hot Seat [Thursday 8/5/2004]
The deputy chief asks, “Who wants to work?”
I respond, “I would like to try.”
This is only my second IV TTP meeting and I am still not sure I can reach
out to Fred. I am hedging, under-promising, non-committal. For the past
two weeks I’ve been trying to reach my feelings at home with no success.
I am terrified.
The deputy chief says, “Do you want to try to or do you want to work?”
Hinting that trying and committing are two different things. I say, “I
want to work.”
“Okay, without much story telling and rationalizing, tell us enough
about the issue so that we may have an idea about what you’re feeling
and an entry point into TTP.”
I state my issue: “I would like to resolve what’s between me and
following trends, both in the market and in life. At critical moments, I
seem unable to go with the flow. At the most critical point in a
situation, I seem to freak out, freeze at times, run away at other times
as if I am faced with a life or death situation. The fight or flight
instinct takes hold of me often. If it isn’t fear that is possessing me,
then it is guilt. My life seems to revolve around these two feelings… My
18-year-old daughter comes home late and I am in a total panic, ready to
lock her up until her next birthday. I’m looking at my screen and a
large position drops 7 points and I am frozen like a dead fish. Sometimes
I stop breathing and I have to remind myself a minute later that I am
running out of air, sometimes I press so much against the arm of my chair
that I develop shoulder and chest pain and I feel that I am having a heart
attack, which triggers another panic and I start wondering whether or not
I am really having a heart attack… Sometimes, I feel like I want to run
away from my computer. I grab the arms of my chair, I stand up, and I walk
out of the room and out of the house.”
Tribe members pick up on my body movements and encourage me to do more of
them. As I get more and more into the somatic side, they push me to
explore my feelings and to experience them. It is an intense session and
we go through nine or ten forms.
The first six forms we focus on involve shaking my hands, shaking of my
head, placing my hands on my waist, shaking my legs, feeling an intense
pain in my stomach and chest, followed by an uncontrollable laughter. We
work with these forms several times, first individually (sequentially),
then in combination (simultaneously).
I receive a lot of support from tribe members. They do a lot of work in
encouraging me, sometimes even pushing me to experience my feelings. As
soon as my CM interferes with the process by coming up with an
argument/rejection, they ask me to experience that argument/rejection. I
hear comments for across the room:
“You got it, Do more of it”
“Experience it, that’s it”
“Do you want to do that? No? Experience the no”
“You’re afraid to have a heart attack? Experience the heart attack”
“Where’s the pain? In your chest, focus on that pain, feel it, enjoy
it, can you enjoy the pain?”
“Enjoy your fear, enjoy your guilt.”
“Yes, that’s it, you got it, do you want to do that?”
“Feels heavy like lifting 5000 pounds? Okay, lift the 5000 pounds. You
can’t? fine, lift 4500 pounds.”
I go along. I feel an excruciating pain in my chest, it moves to my
stomach, then my shoulder, my back, my neck. Then it subsides and I start
laughing in disbelief at what I am experiencing. I am encouraged to laugh
more. I do. I start to feel high as if I am on a kind of hallucinatory
substance. We repeat the forms several time, individually, sequentially.
Each time the pain is the same or stronger (Fred is beating me into a
pulp) and so is the following laughter and high (Fred is making love to me
like a great concubine). The forms repeat with the same intensity.
There’s talk about polarity. I am asked to experience all the forms
simultaneously. Experience all these movements and all these feelings at
the same time? It’s difficult. I tell the tribe it feels like belly
dancing. So they ask me to belly dance. I do. I start laughing
uncontrollably again. Feelings and thoughts of fear and guilt start coming
to my mind. I am talking about how I’ve been clinging to the zero equity
line all my life, how I am jeopardizing my family’s well-being by
leaving the secure corporate world and taking on trading as a career.
Feelings are not dissolving. I am asked to redo the forms and they come
back with the same fierce intensity. The pain is so strong. I tell the
tribe I am feeling like having a baby. They say: Okay, experience having a
Ed remembers me mentioning earlier that I sometimes jump out of my chair
and start walking. He asks the deputy chief to try that form.
“Do you want to get out of your chair and walk.” I am asked.
“You don’t understand,” my CM replies, “When I walk, I walk 10
blocks. I’ll be running into all of you if I start walking.”
“It’s okay. Walk. We’ll make room for you.”
Everyone is moving their chair as far from the center of the room as
possible. I start walking in a circle. I do it for a while. I stop. I don’t
really want to walk. I mention this recurring dream that I have seen,
countless times, since I was a child. I am running extremely fast with my
shorts on, no protection over my legs or arms, I am not paying attention,
and suddenly I am stepping into a huge pothole in the road, bigger than
me. I kick with all my might and I wake up. I never see myself making it
to the other side of the pothole and I never see myself falling in it. I
just kick and I wake up, most of the time with my head banged against the
“Do you want to jump?”
“Yes, right now. Here.”
“I’ll fall in your lap.”
“Do it right there. Imagine there is a pothole right there and jump over
The guys break the circle and move out to make room for me to jump. They
take all the cushions off the couch and lay them on the floor for
I run and I jump and land on the floor over the cushions.
Lots of encouragement from the room, “There you go, excellent, great
jump, sure feels good, do it again.”
I jump again…
And again… to the room’s encouragement. [xxx] takes my glasses so I
won’t break them.
I am feeling a great high that is overtaking my body.
I jump one more time.
I jump again.
I am no longer afraid of the pothole. I am now running through it, jumping
over it, jumping into it.
Suddenly I don’t want to jump anymore. I want to run. I tell everyone I
want to run.
“Go for it. RUN”
I close my eyes and I run and run and run – as if on a treadmill. I no
longer have awareness of where I am. I lose awareness that I am running in
the middle of a room, I am imagining myself in a huge field of wheat,
maybe rye, the sun setting in the ocean on my right side, the oak covered
hills are on my left side. It’s beautiful, warm, wholesome, perfect. I
finally run into [XXX] and I snap out of it.
I am sweaty, I am tired, and I am high. I feel like feelings are lifting
me off the ground. I feel that my lungs are too small to contain the life,
the energy that is running inside me. Life is great. That’s all I can
think off. Nothing matters. Life is beautiful. Life is perfect as it is.
The room is quiet for like 15 minutes. Everyone is in a meditating mode. I
am so happy no one is talking to me. I am experiencing an incredible
climax, an incredible orgasm, I don’t want to lose that feeling, I want
it to last.
nice description. I feel these kinds of personal testimonial do a
lot to encourage people to engage the work and guide them in carrying it
Fri, 13 Aug 2004
The more specific and defined my trading system (and the P/L ranking
levels across various markets) becomes, the more “my ideal Bliss
function starts to emerge” and come into focus Now ...
Thu, 12 Aug 2004
I read earlier in FAQ that the next workshop is on November 5, but it's
not up yet under the Workshop link. I ask that the more workshops a person
has attended, the more of a discount they can receive. Initially, I was
worried about how you or others might respond to this. I felt a little
nervous tingling through my arms and legs.
Now I realize it doesn't matter what other people think, do or say. I ask
because if I don't ask, then I don't have an opportunity to get what I
Workshop link, above.
Thu, 12 Aug 2004
Horses can be
I hope you are well, just wanted to report how the trading tribe is going.
I haven't had many people contacting me from the site, and I suspect that
this is and "English thing" because it seems to me that most
English people don't like to be sharing their private emotions as freely
as in the USA.
The person who had been helping to receive for my TTP is away at the
moment, but will be back soon, so I will be having more sessions soon.
I have been discussing TTP with other trading friends, but most cannot see
the benefits of it.
Like the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make
it drink ...
Sorry not to have better news for you.
I am trying to spread the word though.
might consider taking the feeling of "other people not
responding" into the process.
might try re-writing your title in SVO-p and notice your feelings about
a lot more work
experiencing them running.
Thu, 12 Aug 2004
just thinking about TTP and your progress with it. My question is, after
finding one feeling in the usual TTP way how do I find dipole of this
What is the
process if you can please describe it. Thank you.
developing and merging Forms is an art form.
Polar Form may occur at an opposite point around a drama cycle. It
may occur as a different existence at the same point in the drama.
receivers can create a space into which the forms emerge.
Thu, 12 Aug 2004
I read an earlier post (Mon, 26 Jul 2004, Why is Trading so Different?)
and I wanted to offer my personal "aha" moment that I had during
a tribe meeting.
the first time I showed up to a tribe meeting. I was somewhat aware of
what the TTP process was from reading the FAQ's on your site but deep down
I didn't accept that a solution to trading would be found by feeling a
pain in my big toe or anywhere else. However, I rationalized to myself
that it would be good to attend a couple of meetings and maybe learn some
trading techniques I hadn't thought about and meet other traders. Trading
is a lonely business and to be around others of like mind would be a nice
change. I was a little shocked and disappointed when I attended my first
meeting. I sat in a room with grown men and we beat drums and a couple of
them shared personal feelings while others supported them and made them
feel safe. Then when the sharing of feelings was over, everybody said
goodbye and set to meet in two weeks. I was perplexed, on one hand, I felt
like this was some new age cult stuff and on the other hand, I was very
disappointed that we didn't get to discuss the more important subjects
like trading rules and market filters. Quite frankly I didn't know if I
would go back to another meeting. To make a long story short, I went
back and finally allowed myself to participate in a hot seat session and
found some relief and understanding of some illogical actions I was taking
in my trading.
Now fast forward a couple of months and we have a new member who drove
about 150 miles to attend our tribe meeting. After the meeting was over, I
saw a look on his face that must have been what I looked like at my first
meeting. So I started to justify why the TTP process was important and why
it would help with trading. At this point the person who had started our
tribe explained it to him like this:
Trading is a lot like becoming wealthy. The rules are simple. 1. Live
below your means as much as possible. 2. Invest your excess money or buy
assets that throw off income. 3. Money you make from your investments or
assets is then put back into rule #2. Eventually you become wealthy.
Sounds simple and it is but you will notice that the vast majority of
people will not become wealthy. The reason is that they will not accept
that the rules are really that easy and they will not work to overcome the
overpowering urge of "immediate gratification". They will
purchase items on credit and buy things to satisfy an emotional void.
Finally to justify why they are not becoming rich, they will mystify the
objective and say that only lucky or super intelligent people are able to
become wealthy because they have some kind of inside knowledge or
I then told the new person that trading books by some of the most well
known traders would make the worst movie scripts because the ending is so
anti climatic. You will read about someone who has made millions in the
market and you get on the edge of your seat waiting for the moment he will
tell you how he did it. Finally he gives you the methods he used and they
are usually something really simple like buy on the high of 21 days ago
and then sell at the low of ten days ago. At this point your mind begins
to scream and say "THAT CAN'T BE IT, WHY DO THEY KEEP THE SECRET TO
THEMSELVES". We don’t want to accept that the rule for successfully
trading are like the rules for becoming wealthy. They are simple but
following them is difficult because you will introduce "drama"
into the process.
TTP helps you
deal with the drama so that you can finally follow the simple rules. That
was my "aha moment", that is why I can beat my drum and share my
feelings with impunity and feel successful for doing it.
I hope this
helps someone else who is questioning the TTP process.
Thu, 12 Aug 2004
We are excited to announce that the Minneapolis Trading Tribe now has 5
members committed to personal growth and giving and receiving support.
Wed, 11 Aug 2004
In the two tribe meetings in the last two weeks, we have a tribe member
who wanted to work on his issue on ignoring his system and take premature
profits, and another member who wanted to be more optimistic.
And twice, I
thought, "To stop taking premature profits, one way is to embrace the
positive intentions of holding onto profits, and embrace the feelings of
grabbing profits," and "To be optimistic, one way is to embrace
pessimism, and enjoy being pessimistic, and then naturally we arrive at
I guess I've
read enough FAQ by now, and somehow these thoughts come very naturally to
me, and it all makes perfect sense. I owe Chief Ed a great deal. Suddenly,
it occurs to me that I am actually not practicing this exact concept that
I totally believe ... See, I have had issues with commitment. Many times I
just fall short in completing a task, and wander off to something else. I
seldom read a book cover to cover, mostly it is to read it half way, read
a second one half way, read a third one or perhaps even a fourth one, and
then returning to the first one. Same thing with watching movies that I
have on tape. The vast majority of time I just stop in the middle and off
to do something else.
Those are very
minor problems. But in real life, I do not complete my tasks. I set out to
do a certain thing, and I usually just wander off to other, less important
tasks. I just seem to be very good at not completing, not finishing, not
carrying through. Sensing this, I was very eager to bring it to our tribe
meeting. I explain to other tribe members I want to experience the feeling
of non-commitment, to fully embrace it. Even more, I feel that (again,
from hearing about your polarity talks) my non-commitment may be closely
related to the commitment that I so desire. I feel that there must be a
connection between the two, and I'm ready to find out! So I am very eager
to experience them and get on the hot seat. I find myself leaving the hot
seat and on the floor (again, like my previous session). I also notice I
start breathing deeper yet faster, deeper yet faster, and finally a
choking feeling where it ends with a crying burst. (BTW, this is a similar
feeling I've had in previous hot seat sessions too.
In fact, I am
noticing that other tribe members also have their own "favorite"
manifestation of feelings that they repeatedly demonstrate on various
occasions) For me, I have several cycles of the choking/crying burst
It is tough, but I am "committed" to it. I feel like an animal. Finally,
as I intensify even more there is a breakthrough where the crying burst
becomes a powerful roar, like a lion. And I feel like I've gone from
non-committed to committed by staying with the choking feeling, and now I
arrive at my destiny of invincibility. But that's not the end of the
story. In fact, it merely begins here.
At this climax of roaring strength, I hear some receivers encouraging me
to stay with the feeling of non-commitment. And I begin to crawl
backwards, back, and back until I am against the wall. This time I feel
like a wounded animal retreating, wanting to avoid conflicts, scared.
Although it is not really the official polarity way, I am actually feeling
the pendulum swinging between the commitment and non-commitment. In fact,
I have several more cycles of that. At some point of feeling scared, I
feel embarrassed and ashamed of the way I am hiding like a coward,
avoiding to face reality. I start the heavy breathing again, and crawl
forward in a committed manner. The breathing gets deeper and faster, and
again, I reach a climax when I feel I've overcome everything. However, I
retreat again, crawl backward again, and get back to my hiding corner
I start to feel the positive intention of non-commitment, that I may
actually want to be non-committed in a way. It is "tough" when I
am in the commitment phase of the cycle. The heavy breathing is tough, and
the choking is painful. It takes effort and hard work to be committed.
Moreover, commitment limits my choices. If I am fully committed to certain
things, such as marriage, there are a lot of things I need to give up
because they are in conflict with my commitment. You teach me this in the
workshop - commitment is to reject the drama when some ... one ...
comes and tempts you. Whereas for me personally, I love freedom and
dislike limited option. In fact, I want to delay making decisions so as to
get as much information as possible, "keeping the doors open."
Therefore, I actually do not want to be committed!! I actually appreciate
But too much
non-commitment leads to an inferior feeling, that I am weak and cannot
face challenges. I feel ashamed of myself, so ashamed that I cry. In fact,
I feel that the feeling of shamefulness may be the judge. When I was a
kid, my dad hated me when I cried because I was so annoying. He always
said boys don't cry, and I also get ridiculed in school because crying is
considered girly. And I wonder if I am creating these failed commitment
drama so that I feel ashamed, and if it is shameful enough, I'll burst out
So it is like a sine wave. At the utter embarrassment of myself, I find
myself committing, to the point where I am strong. And at the pinnacle of
strength, I retreat back to non-commitment, failure, fear, embarrassment
Feeling that I've come to understand the positive intentions of
non-committing, I've asked the tribe members to help me get to the form of
commitment. This time, I feel energetic, enthusiastic, focused, excited,
agitated. I feel like Rocky. I am cheering myself. In fact, everyone
around me is cheering for me. It feels GOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!
And then we try the polarity process. On one hand is my commitment
feeling, on the other is the non-commitment. The receivers ask me to pull
the two together, but I don't feel doing it. I feel that I can do it if I
really force my hands, but it just doesn't feel right. I finally do pull
them together, but it doesn't feel any particular release.
Our group leader points out to me that I am associating commitment with
hard work and pain, and non-commitment with freedom. As we discuss further
we realize that there may be more: commitment is hard work and pain,
but it is also a GOOOOOOOOOD energetic feeling; non-commitment is freedom,
but it is also a shameful feeling of weakness. There are actually four
encouragement from our group leader, I made a second attempt to fully
integrate commitment and non-commitment. I find myself shaking my left
hand while holding my right hand steady, and then switch hands after a
while. With the cheering of the tribe I manage to intensify the shaking on
each hand (separately), and finally shaking both hands simultaneously. I
feel very tired but the tribe's support keeps me hanging on, and achieve
new heights (in terms of duration of this shaking process) that I never
thought myself able to.
But eventually I
get to the point where I collapse back down to crossing my arms to hold
myself. Again, I feel like the commitment part (i.e. the shaking of my
hands) has shifted to the non-commitment part now, and I am holding myself
back and avoid any type of confrontation or challenge.
Eventually I get sick of the non-commitment part, and I put my hands
together and start swinging. That feels good, and I keep holding my hands
tighter and tighter. My take on it is that absolute commitment may lead me
to burn out, but I am tired of total non-commitment. If I can get the two
to work together, I can find great force.
This is where I stop. Again, my group leader reflects by asking me if I
truly feel total resolve between commitment and non-commitment. And here's
where I am not sure of. Naturally it somewhat makes sense that I want to
have both feelings (commitment and non-commitment) as my ally, and I feel
that their "cooperation" will lead to greater strength. However,
I guess deep insider I am still hesitant because it defies logic.
Throughout my life, including in the Reno workshop, I learn that
commitment is necessary for success. It is like the quote from Goethe; or
what you say about when a person is truly committed, then things just seem
to happen to help him; or like all great traders talk about how important
it is to be committed...
understand the positive intentions for non-commitment, it seems that they
are the recipe for failure. So while I may enjoy freedom, I don't think
this momentary freedom is indeed the thing I want. It is like failing to
commit to lose weight by eating all those ice-cream in front of you - it
feels good as I am eating, but it misses the bigger picture. So yes,
non-commitment feels good and free, but it is still "bad." I
find myself falling back into the dilemma and judging instead of
Hmmm, once again I find myself fail to complete the task... of FULLY
experiencing commitment/non-commitment. And I don't how to proceed from
here. I feel that I have taken my issue to the tribe, have gone through A
LOT of emotions and feelings, have gained a lot of insights and yet fall
short of completing the whole resolution.
May I please ask for your insights? Thank you wholeheartedly.
one form of the polarity process, you load your hands with polar feelings
and then experientially dissolve whatever is standing between them as you
move your hands together.
Half-a-Yoga, an extension of the Polarity Process, we combine total body
the event the composite form does not feel complete, we put the sense of
incompletion into another form and then work that into the composite.
peaceful composite form indicates completion.
v. (co = together; mit = to send).
you commit TTP Forms, you send them together and occasion the creation of
a composite form.
the Path Together
Wed, 11 Aug
Dear Mr. Seykota:
Thank you very much for making possible a very enlightening forum dealing
with the intersection of our lives and our chosen métier, trading. I have
an interest in coming together with persons who live in and around the
Hampton Roads region of South East Virginia to form a group where we can
conduct the TT process. The region encompasses the cities of Hampton,
Newport News, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Williamsburg, Chesapeake, Suffolk,
and Portsmouth. Any help with regard to this is highly appreciated.
are on the Directory Page
Wed, 11 Aug 2004
Dear Mr. Seykota,
You said in the market-wizards interview, that you trade markets according
to their long-term trends. What is your "long-term" time frame?
Thank you very much.
does not recommend specific trading system parameters. See Ground Rules.
general, a long term trend is what you see when you put a chart on your
screen and look at it from across the room. A short term trend is
what you see when you look at it up close.
about the same
on the beach.
Wed, 11 Aug 2004
Dear Mr. Seykota
I am interested to learn, for myself, how I can better understand the
market I trade.
I trade the DAX future. I have studied the market and have noticed
price relationships in short term trends.
However, I am not clear how to use this knowledge, i.e how to I spot
when the market is trending to a new level ?
I hope I have made my request clear.
Thank you in advance.
do not know what relationships you notice. You might try re-writing
your question in SVO-p.
market is trending to a new level, now, only now and always now.
trend is a general direction in which something moves. To define a trend,
pick a historical price, and subtract it from the current price.
difference tells you the direction and magnitude of the trend.
market has no inherent trend. It only has a price, now. A
trend is a notion you bring to the market, depending on your own
definition of trend.
on your Definition
market is up, down or sideways