1- 10, 2004
from Ed in Red)
Sun, 10 Oct 2004
I am interested in joining a tribe in Chicago. I did not see one in the
directory. I would, therefore, like to start one in Chicago. How do I do
the directory again to see a listing for a new Tribe in Chicago.
|Sun, 10 Oct 2004
You've stated several times that when it comes to rules that define a
trend following system you prefer simpler rules to more complex rules. Why
do you prefer this?
You've stated several times that long term trend following systems have
the advantage of lower transaction costs over shorter term systems. Do you
feel there are other advantages of longer term over short term
trend following systems? If so, what are they?
does not answer "why" questions - see Ground Rules.
short term systems tend to succumb to transaction costs.
can find specific systems that you prefer or that you feel have an advantage
for you by conducting your own historical tests.
|Sun, 10 Oct 2004
Thank you for enriching our lives with your wisdom and inspiration. With
each passing day I find myself enjoying my life, with a quiet confidence
and positive thoughts.
Your teachings have been very useful, particularly in difficult times,
when I sought the light from a role model.
I cannot express in words the gratitude I feel, and I am sure many in the
tribe feel the same way.
|Sat, 9 Oct 2004
Thank you very much for such an enjoyable consultation and conversation. I
could still hear the same excitement in your voice and the love you have
for the markets and for sharing your knowledge that I experienced when I
Consider me for your group. I would love to look into
that possibility further. After you read this research paper I would like
to have a follow-up call ... to discuss it, and how it relates to
something we discussed. Thank you again so very much.
|Fri, 8 Oct 2004
Documentation of Hot Seat Experience
Attached is the documentation of my second hot seat experience (as a
sender). A bit too long, but well detailed. Thought it might be helpful to
... I am talking to a couple of trader-hopefuls in my neck of the woods
about starting a tribe here. Do we have your approval to do that without
any of us attending the workshop?
I want to thank you for [allowing me to attend the IV Tribe] over the past
three - four months. The six meetings I have attended at the IV TT have
made a big difference. As I said in my last check-in, I've never felt like
a trader as I do now ...
My Second Hot Seat as a Sender
5:00PM, Thursday afternoon. I am driving around Lake Tahoe on my way to
the IV TT meeting. The drive from the San Francisco Bay Area to Incline
Village, through the majestic Sierra Nevada Mountains, is an enjoyable and
productive experience. I usually use this time to reflect on the events
and lessons of the last two weeks.
But today is different. Today I am anxious and uneasy. I am straining, I
am wrestling with myself. I am not going with the flow, I am not riding
I haven’t traded for almost three months. And I am not trading until I
learn how to lose gracefully, dispassionately. I am a bitter and a lousy
loser, and my bad losing habits have cost me dearly in the markets. I want
to work tonight and I want a balanced hot seat: A little bit of logic for
me and a little bit of feelings for Fred. Maybe we can limit the somatics
to the good forms - the happy ones, the great high, the great peace –
and skip the painful forms – the stomach aches, the headaches, the neck
pains, and those hard feelings that shake you at the core of your soul.
Everyone gets their outlet this way, everyone is happy, and I overcome my
I reach for Fred, but he does not respond. “Fred, Freddy, Buddy, Fredo,
Alfredo, Frededido …” No matter how I endear myself to him, he does
not show. I tell him to go to hell and I feel mixed feelings of respect
and envy for the masters who have come to achieve full self-mastery. If
only I can be like them. If only I can reach inside of myself and come up
with the goods of discipline, commitment, confidence, dispassion about
money, and loss-taking ability.
I think of the samurai for a while as the ultimate
self-master. Then I shrug the thought off, consoling myself that I will
probably live longer than most Samurais. “Is theirs “the right
livelihood,” I think with a nasty grin, “or is it the right
deathlihood?” What kind of a career choice is that?
Betting their life on a 50% chance game hand after hand
after hand isn’t high-expectancy trading. How long will an active
Samurai last? Gee, I do slightly better than that myself.
Thinking of the right livelihood, I start to get depressed a little. I
haven’t done a thing in three months. Not one single trade, not one
single trigger pulled, all because of my inner-weakness. I start to feel
like a sissy cowboy going against John Wayne or Clint Eastwood. I think
about what Ed might say about that. “No-livelihood might be the
right-livelihood for you,” he’d most likely say. I laugh. Can he be
serious when he says these things? I can’t tell. I feel so freaking
clueless, a true loser.
It gets too complicated to analyze. I decide to drop these
non-constructive thoughts and to focus on the here-and-now. From my
current position on highway 28, the water and the shores of Lake Tahoe
look heavenly, magical, serene, superb. I park the car and I submerge
myself in the beauty. I wonder if and when angels visit this place. I
wonder if there are sirens in the lake and I imagine how they’d look
like and how they’d be in bed. Maybe I have no-livelihood, but I feel
most definitely alive. I decide to take a little snooze - La siesta de
It’s a little bit after 7:00PM and I am in the hot seat. I am on a
mission to intellectualize Mr. Fred into subordination. Fellow tribesmen
are very supportive. I am happy to have their sympathy. I give a speech
for 15-20 minutes on the progressive - maniacal - delusionary - paranoid -
phobical - wishful - thinkincal syndrome that affects me whenever I
experience a loss.
The typical talk of any loser. I explain in detail why a
50% equity loss is more convincing to me than a 2% loss. Why falling with
a thud is more spectacular than falling gently. Why changing system
parameters is really good in the middle of a loss, especially if the new
parameters are based on fundamental analysis. I explain how stops and
timeframes can be stretched intelligently to accommodate one’s ego and
psycho needs and one’s wishful projections and how the market always
comes back to seeing it your way, especially if you give it enough rope to
hang itself. I talk about how elastic the concept of time is and how the
‘now’ can be stretched to include ‘tomorrow’ without violating the
Tribe members continue to be very supportive. “Go on,” they say, “keep
explaining, keep rationalizing, just do anything to avoid getting into
In my gullibility and desperation, I do not realize that they’re being
sarcastic. I am thinking, “That’s great, I am kicking Fred’s ass and
the tribe is supporting me. How cool.” I go on explaining more. Now I am
giving a synopsis of my career as a financial analyst and how I can build
financial models bigger than the pyramids, notwithstanding that I still
can’t take a ten dollar loss!
“How do you feel about that?” a friendly voice comes back.
“Good.” And I go on another rationalization spree. How you can run a
whole company with my strategic, tactical, manpower, and material planning
“How do you feel about that?” a slightly irritated and forceful voice
“Good.” And I go on yet another rationalization spree.
“HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?” a more irritated and more forceful voice
Shit, he is sounding like Moses when he caught his tribe drunk out of
their minds on his way back from the mountain. I am losing my nerve, not
sure if I should go on rationalizing.
“YOU DID NOT HAVE A PROBLEM LAST TIME GETTING INTO YOUR FEELINGS. WHAT’S
HOLDING YOU BACK NOW? LISTEN TO YOUR BODY. IT KNOWS WHAT IT WANTS TO DO.”
I feel that’s it. I am at the end of my rope. They obviously were not
serious about helping me intellectualize Fred. I feel like an idiot. I
should have known better. The whole purpose of TTP is to encourage Fred
and to celebrate it, not to obsolete it. What was I thinking? Am I wishful
My mind is racing. They’re giving me a way out. Do I end the hot seat or
do I get into my feelings? I can’t end the hot seat. This is the last
issue standing between me and my being a trader. This is the last frontier
and I must conquer it. This is my chance. I am here. The tribe is here.
There is no better time. I desperately need this. I better get into it.
I close my eyes and I focus. How do I feel? How do I feel? How do I feel?
I feel utter disappointment in myself. I feel like a total failure. I feel
tense. I feel like shit. I feel sick.
Ouch! My stomach! My hand goes to my stomach. I tell the tribe I have pain
in my stomach.
“Great,” they say
“Feel it more,”
“Go with it,”
‘Keep your hand on your stomach, yes, keep rubbing it,”
The pain starts to intensify. It gets stronger by the second. I grab my
stomach with both hands and I am shaking a little.
The tribe is getting excited. There are all kinds of encouragement to stay
with the form.
The pain is strong. It’s moving upwards towards my chest and my neck.
That’s it, the gates of hell are open and Fred is out like your
proverbial bat out of hell. The S.O.B. always does that. He punches me in
the stomach first, then he ravishes through the rest of my body like the
blade of a Cuisinart spinning at 30,000 r.p.m. This is the part of TTP
that I dread.
I am holding my shoulder with my hand as it is falling off. I complain. I
tell the tribe that I have a very strong shoulder pain. That this is
exactly my issue with TTP. That these pains are too much, are not
reasonable, that there should be a way to avoid them. That Fred is nasty
and mean and that he likes to kick my ass every time he gets a chance. Why
does he have all these pent-up emotions against me? Why can’t we have a
‘logic knob’ to control Fred’s intensity?
A lot of ‘why’ questions. Moses (the Chief) is ticked-off again. “Here
we go! Go on and complain about the process and the tribe and Fred. Just
do anything to avoid going into your feelings.”
He’s calling me a whiner! I can’t believe he’s calling me a whiner.
I am dying here and he’s calling me a whiner. I am not a whiner, I am an
achiever. Well maybe I am not an achiever, I never reach the summit, but I
am a hard worker, I am industrious, I am not a whiner.
Humm. Why don’t I ever reach the summit?
I hate the summit. It’s awful at the summit. It’s lonely at the
summit. It’s freezing at the summit.
A chill takes over my body. I am shaking. I am freezing. I embrace myself
trying to warm up. I feel the goose bumps on my skin. I imagine myself
climbing toward the summit of a steep mountain peak In the middle of a
nasty blizzard and as soon as I am within a 100 yards from the top I am
sliding down, sliding, sliding, sliding, toward the bottom.
The tribe is encouraging me to stay with the feeling. My whole body is now
shaking. I can’t stop the shaking. I feel like I am under a giant ice
“Yes, keep shaking your legs, your hands, your chin. Yes, stay with it,
yes, that’s it, good job…”
This goes on for a while. I get stiff like a rod. I tell the tribe I am
afraid I am going to die. They say, “Die then. Experience death.”
A moment goes by. I start laughing hysterically. Experience death! What a
term! Coldness and death go so well together. The summit is death. Funny
that this afternoon I was thinking about death. About the Samurai, getting
into each fight knowing fully well that death is a 50% chance outcome. Yet
it does not bother him.
I tell the tribe that I am mad at the Samurai. How can he fight without a
stop? How can he have no sense of self when so much is at stake? How can
he be one with the sword, moving in his fight gracefully, flawlessly as if
he has nothing on the line. I hate the Samurai. I think he is culturally
overrated, over-glorified. I mean the man is an idiot.
“Can you be the Samurai now? Can you do this form?” Moses says.
I sure can. I stand up and I start chopping the air with my blade. Chop,
Encouragement comes from the room, “What a good swordsman, look at these
body moves, YES, Keep it going.”
I am swinging my sword. Suddenly, I have an urge to chop my ego. I tell
the tribe how I like to chop my ego. They encourage me to do it for a
while. I go at it, chopping my imaginary ghost-like ego as he bounces in
the air in front me. Chop, chop, chop.
Then Moses says: “Can you be your ego? Do you want to be your ego? Do
you want to put that into a form?”
“I don’t like my ego.”
“Can you do it anyway? Can you get yourself to like it?”
I try. I walk around the room, chest high. I feel taller and more erect
than Fidel Castro (I am 5’ 5” by the way). I walk with the attitude of
Mussolini. The receivers are cheering me and I am getting fuller of myself
by the second. I am telling them that they are all wrong and I am right. I
am telling them that I can move markets. That they’d better not bet
I am telling them that I am Archimedes. That with my $[amount] account
lever I can move the world. Better yet, I am Atlas. I can carry the world.
“Yes, Atlas, act out Atlas now.”
I bend on my knee and raise my hands behind my shoulders as if I am
carrying the world and I scream: “I am Atlas and the earth is too light.
Add more on. Add Mars and the moon and a constellation or two.”
The exit (climax):
I do Atlas a few times. Then it is time for polarity. I am asked to do all
the forms together. I do them slowly at first. The tribe encourages me to
do that faster. So I do them faster and faster – the stomach pain, the
neck pain, the shaking, the shivering, the Samurai, Archimedes, Atlas.
I do them together a few times.
Then I stop. I am on my knees on the floor, a huge amount of energy is
flowing within me, centered in my chest.
“Listen to your body,” a voice comes in from behind me, “your body
knows what it wants to do, just observe what your body wants.”
Still on my knees, my eyes are closed, I am totally focused on my body, I
feel all the forms spinning inside me like a hurricane. The eye of the
hurricane gets clearer and clearer, it is centered around my heart. I grab
my chest with my hands and I bend forward slowly to let it pass.
My forehead touches the floor, I am sobbing, crying. The funnel of the
storm passes gently, peacefully. I moan:” my past, oh my past.”
The room is quiet.
I am at the zero point. Such peace. Nothing matters. Perfect world.
Everything is beautiful. The high of highs. Magic!
A couple of minutes pass. I thank everybody. What a high!
“So where did all these forms converge to?” Moses asks.
“To this state of nothingness, nothing matters, total peace.” I reply.
“Do the Samurai.”
My body hardly moves.
“Do Atlas and Archimedes.”
I just smile. My body does not feel like doing nothing.
“How do you feel now about taking a loss?”
“Trading is all about loss-taking. No loss-taking means no trading.”
“How do you feel about taking a loss only to see the stock bounce back
and rally for 20 days in a row?”
“Too fucking bad. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time I take the loss it is
“How do you feel about taking the loss only to see the stock collapse 20
“Good. That is what the system is supposed to do in the first place.”
“Good, you see this state you are in now? I want you to observe it, to
record it, to save it in a way that you can retrieve it later on demand.”
nice description of being on the Hot Seat.
encourages the formation of Tribes and maintains a bulletin board to help
like-minded people connect. See Tribe Directory, above.
to the code of Bushido
way of the warrior").
stresses loyalty to one's master,
discipline and respectful, ethical behavior.
|Fri, 8 Oct 2004
Does the fundamental theorem of calculus establish that differentiation
and integration are inverse operations?
The essence of the above observation didn't sink in until I reread your
post dated Sat, 05 Apr 2003.
Fundamental Theorem of Calculus does not establish anything. It is
mathematical language for a principle that you establish by AHA.
is continuous on [a,x], then the function
derivative at every point in [a,x], and
|Thu, 7 Oct 2004
The Einstein of Trading?
On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the least complex and 10 being the
most complex, how would you rank the complexity of the mathematical
formulas you use in your trading system(s)?
If you were to teach these formulas to some lucky person, what would be
the mathematical prerequisites to attend this class (i.e., Algebra,
Calculus, Geometry, etc.)?
Perhaps you are indeed the Einstein of trading, which is quite
complexity of a trading system has little to do with the markets and
little to do with the math; it has mostly to do with your emotions.
Directory Page shows the requirements for attending the Incline Village
|Thu, 7 Oct 2004
Re: Kids (Oct 2)
Dear Mr. Seykota,
Thanks for the response. How do you decide when the kid is capable
of making the choice to accept / reject PPR
(Private Property Rules)?
This morning when I was on my way to work, I saw a
father with his daughter, about two to three years old. She has a book,
and she keeps bending it. The father tells her not to, but after a while,
she does it again. Now the father just takes the book away from her and
she isn't happy about it.
So I begin to think - what would I do if I am the father? If the book is
hers, then under PPR, I respect it as her property and she can tear it
into pieces and it's none of my business. But then I feel that she may
not be mature enough to understand the value of the book, and as the
father I need to teach her how to properly read a book. So while I
want to implement PPR as early as possible in the childhood for the kids,
does it mean the person need to have a certain level of maturity or else
it is meaningless? If so, where do I draw the line? And does it mean I'm
imposing my judgment on someone? Is this judgment necessary?
Regarding my second question about kids crying in public that makes you
embarrassed, I think you point our correctly about my k-nots about crying.
As a kid, I cried so much that people always laugh at me for being so soft
and "girly", which remains one of the things I like to hear the
least. The interesting thing is, there are several occasions on the hot
seat where I really want to cry, but tears just won't come out, and
I'm just feeling frustrated.
OK now, say instead of crying, what about if the kid makes an obscene
gesture in public because they think it's funny? Or say the f-word because
that's what they learn from movies?
I think I'd feel embarrassed when they do that in
public, and what do I do in accordance with the TTP principle? Do I stop
them from doing the gesture, or do I encourage them to keep doing it and
feel the feelings that come up? I guess the long-term solution is to take
my embarrassment to TTP and try to seek its positive intention, but when
I'm at that moment with the kids and relatives and they give the middle
finger, what can I do?
child is always capable of making a choice. He may not want to make
the choice you think he "should" make.
child is always mature enough to understand the value of a book. She
may not value it the way you do.
are the one who makes the judgments that define "properly."
your tears don't flow on the hot seat then there may be some receiver(s)
who share your k-nots..
child seems to enjoy making gestures as a form of communicating something
(perhaps to you). When you receive the communication, the form
sending the exact message
are unwilling to receive.
|Thu, 7 Oct 2004
Re: An Experience at Work (Oct
Thanks for the response. Let me clarify the junior member of my team was
changing the parameters on a trading system of the group, and the system
is one which I'm no longer actively involved in. He claims to have done
testing, but I remain skeptical as I haven't seen the results nor knowing
the methodologies he employs (smells like over-fitting from the little
that I know?). He does briefly talk to the manager about the change, but I
don't think she knows or cares too much anyway. So how do I feel about the
change? I don't feel excited about it and perhaps even a little bit
However, and I think this is the interesting point that you have mentioned
to me on our phone conversation several months ago, that I don't feel
like confronting others. In this particular case, I don't feel I want
to bring up my concerns, because I'm no longer actively involved on that
particular system, and I feel that I have already created a dramatic
situation with just a mere comment. In the culture I grow up, one tends to
learn to avoid confrontation (first rule, never confront the elders or the
respected), and I always fear confronting others means I'll make an enemy,
making more people dislike me, you know?
But when I think about it, I do like confronting others. I do like
challenging other's views, especially when I feel they are giving B.S. I
feel like I'm on a mission to be the one to point out that the emperor has
no clothes. In an online technical analysis discussion group, there are
many times I challenge other's ambiguous views, e.g. technicians who are
hedging themselves by making confusing calls that can mean both ways, to
the point that they get annoyed.
Hmmm, sounds like another TTP entry point I guess...
of the principles of TTP is that the feelings we avoid are the very
feelings we want to feel the most.
|Thu, 7 Oct 2004
Ed says, "Good receivers typically report they
get as much out of receiving as sending."
It's interesting to see this comment from you, right after a very deep and
exciting session we had last night. We have two terrific senders who have
all the intention to feel their feelings, and we as receivers all feel
enthusiastic, energetic and eager to receive.
I think the leap from good to great sessions come when
we all realize the tremendous experience we can get from the hot seat. All
of us gain the strong intention to feel our feelings when we get the
opportunity to be on the hot seat, which somehow (through the under-Fred
network??) gets to the receivers, and focuses the intention on receiving
and validating those feelings without our own agenda.
It is a great experience, and we feel another level into
the Process. I for one feel the receiving process last night was
absolutely fantastic!!! Thanks!!
Wed, 6 Oct 2004
If you are interested I can make a ... [position sizing calculator] for
you which will run from the Trading Tribe website. The procedure is you
just upload the PHP source file to your webserver, and then link to it
just like any other weblink.
Following in accords with the Private Property rule, I will give you a
version of the calculator for free for use only on the Trading Tribe
website, as long as you agree not to release the source code to anyone
place your calculator control in a web page that also contains warnings
that it is for demonstration
purposes only and traders may use it at their own risk.
might also include a discussion of the theory behind sizing for risk
control, and a description of the algorithm.
Wed, 6 Oct 2004
Every time I think of a difficult issue I cannot resolve, I seek your
insights, and with your great wisdom, you've provided countless ideas. I
notice vast majority of them tie to taking the issue to TTP, which I now
understand that is the most proper place to resolve it. To get to the root
of the issues which comes from some knotty feelings requires going back to
those feelings to un-knot it, and that's what TTP does.
So it's nice to know that a lot of issues I can probably resolve them
through TTP. However, we only have one TTP session each week, and that's
on the high end in terms of frequency. Each time we have one to maybe two
hot seat occupants, and with seven or eight members we get on the hot seat
on average every five to six weeks.
So while TTP is our "cure" to the issues, what are some ways to
prevent them in the first place, as the adage says "prevention is the
best cure?" What're your thoughts on it? Many thanks.
receivers typically report they get as much out of receiving as sending.
you are receiving, you might still take your feelings of "I can't get
enough" into the process.
point of view
Wed, 6 Oct 2004
I am contacting you for advice on where to start learning how to
trade / investing efficiently.
I have learned of you from "Market Wizards" and "Trend
I have read through your Trading Tribe web site and it seems that this is
for active traders.
good way to put things off is to keep wondering where to start.
all in a Line
where to start swimming.
Wed, 6 Oct 2004
i am a day trader with enough luck during the past 8 years to pay the
bills and live comfortably.
i am carefully
reviewing FAQ for help with my trading cycle drama. i am experiencing some
of my feelings for the first time with my wife's help.
how can i
know the positive intentions of my feelings. my trading is a huge mood
rollercoaster. large drawdowns seem to motivate me to stick to my risk
management plan, while gains seem to just expand my appetite for risk.
i usually have a
pain threshold that once hit, seems to change my perspective and renew my
respect for the risk i am taking with each position. i trade an extremely
small account that is leveraged to the moon. this is by choice, because i
believe that with more money in my account, my drawdowns would just be
larger on a hard dollar basis and about the same on a percentage basis
(sort of the Livermore technique of hiding money away that i can't get
i guess i don't
trust myself. i do take profits out of my account on a monthly basis for
expenses, so i realize that my emotions will naturally run high based on
the success of each trade.
i would just
like to get to the point where my equity curve is not at the mercy of my
feelings of frustration or anger. i could write many more pages of
detail, but i gather from FAQ postings that you probably don't need it to
TTP: My equity is at the mercy of my frustration and anger.
TTP: I see the positive intention of my frustration and anger; I no
longer need to engineer drama with my equity to justify feeling them.
good receiver knows deeply that feelings have positive intentions.
the presence of many such receivers (a Trading Tribe) your Forms come to
the surface, like iron filings come to a magnet.
might consider attending a tribe meeting, or a Workshop to experience this
directly and get the knack of it. See links above.
you accept and integrate
Mon, 4 Oct 2004
Are volume trends useful in determining the likelihood of trend
continuance after a breakout?
all ambiguous, fuzzy notions.
have little to do with trend following except to provide excuses for
followers take their signals and leave distractions to fuzzy-mentalists.
head of the department
charge of giving you excuses
Mon, 4 Oct 2004
This morning it suddenly hits me about your intention of TTP to be a
passing aha. It is just like any system, any rules.
They are there
to help us to do certain things, especially the things that we don't do on
a consistent basis. Then, as they become natural to us, there is no need
for the system or rules any more. It is a part of us already!!
It applies to everything we do (or master). Like English (I am not a
native speaker). I learn about the grammar rules, about the preposition,
the past/future tense and etc. They are rules. And then after these years,
they become a natural part of me where I no longer need to think which is
the correct preposition to use in look at, look for, look into, or look
after, or is it I looked, I have looked or I had looked.
And then the
exciting part is, once the language has become a part of me, I break the
old rules and try something new, like SVO-p, and see a totally different
Or trading system. Having a system to buy at a 22-day high or 220-day high
is just a system. When we reach the level where buying strength is just a
natural part of us, the parameters are just meaningless numbers. When Fred
does not need to create drama to get our attention, we can just trade
freely without any restrictions we apply on ourselves. I clearly see that
rules are there just because they are the things we don't (or haven't)
completely accept(-ed) yet.
To me, TTP is synonymous to feel our feelings. When we become naturally
aware of our feelings, that Fred and CM are freely communicating with one
another, then there is no "need" to be asking ourselves what is
standing between us and _____.
It's just part
of us already. And there is no line between sender and receivers.
Everyday, everyone around us, we continue to send, and we continue to
receive, in the moment of now. For example, when two people hug, shake
hands, or have sex, they are both sender and receiver. Just like addition
or subtraction, now that we've learned the rules of how to add or
subtract, it's just a passing aha and a part of how I think. TTP, then
too, is just a passing aha.
Wow, this is great stuff!! Thanks Ed wholeheartedly for introducing us
this concept. I come a long way but I think I'm starting to get the aha.
And it feels GREAT!!! Thanks.
When You Get a Good Look
a passing AHA
Mon, 4 Oct 2004
Following up on my registration for November's workshop, I have not joined
a tribe to this point.
There are no
tribes in close proximity to my home. I was wondering if it would be
helpful or necessary to forward the prerequisite material for joining a
tribe (e.g. CV, essays) to you directly.
Tribe Directory, above for instructions for joining and / or starting a
people travel considerable distances to attend meetings. Incline
Village, Nevada members hail from Canada, Minnesota, Illinois, California,
Mon, 4 Oct 2004
Is it possible to send me the FAQ as well as the ground rules.
can find links to FAQ pages, including ground rules, at the top of this
page. It's all for free.
can also send them to you, via email, fax, or special courier, depending
on your budget.
your door, in seconds
a small fee.
Sun, 3 Oct 2004
A good web site
might consider if your aversion to the trend in the growth of government
stands in the way of your aligning with it.
past and future
them out of reach.
Sun, 3 Oct 2004
1) How do you define static portfolio mix?
2) Do you define dynamic portfolio mix, then?
2a) If yes, how do you back-test this?
you back-test a portfolio that you select before the test, you effectively
carry your selection decision back to the start of the simulation.
more rigorous approach is to define only your selection criteria and then
have your program select the portfolio, real-time, as it proceeds with the
approach may be out of scope for consumer-grade back-testing software.
Practice for Simulators
in the now
past or future.
Sat, 2 Oct 2004
Dear Mr. Seykota,
What do you do when your kids violate the Private Property Rule?
If your kids cry in public and you feel embarrassed, do you encourage them
to cry more and experience the feeling, or do you try to make them stop
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
encourage my kids to imagine how life might work and feel (1) in a
private-property system and (2) in a communal-property system.
are both systems for defining interpersonal boundaries.
with a choice tend to choose the former.
assumption, that I feel embarrassment when my kids cry, may indicate you
carry some k-nots about crying.
Sat, 2 Oct 2004
Very nice picture of Marilyn
[Monroe] … but it reminds me of what antiques we are.
a good chest
they see one.
Fri, 1 Oct 2004
Role in the Polarity Process
What is the receiver's role in the polarity process? Is it any different
than in TTP?
What I get from your response (Receivers off the hook, Sep 16 and 20) is
that receivers are to receive, not to lead or guide.
But when I read
the various polarity experience on either FAQ or Pollinator, it sounds
like the receiver takes a more active role than just validating.
It seems that
the receiver asks the sender to experience the first dipole, the when the
receiver deems appropriate, he asks the sender to experience the second
dipole. And finally, when he thinks the sender is ready, experience both
So it involves
some form of leading and guiding, doesn't it?
And if so, does it imply only one person to take that guiding role?
For if we have
multiple receivers, each wanting to support the sender to experience the
various feelings, may give mixed guidance. What is the proper way? Thanks.
overall framework for the Polarity Process is an agreement the sender and
receivers make at the start of the process - an agreement to follow the
that framework, the receivers assist the sender in tracking and developing
feelings into forms, wherever they go.
forms, or Yalfs, then combine as the sender integrates all his feelings in
one moment of now.
Yalf, the Yalf
for it's other half.
Fri, 1 Oct 2004
An Experience at Work
Several days ago one junior member of my group sent a group email out
about some changes he has made to the system.
He just finished
school last year and joined our group, and upon receiving his email, I
replied (to all) that we should put a comment at where we keep our P&L
such that we can easily spot if there is noticeable difference in the
P&L. Keeping good record was what I learned from senior traders when I
first started in this business.
This guy didn't appreciate my response. In fact, he felt it was ridiculous
and upset that I sent the email to all before consulting him.
Now it was me
who got really upset. Heck no, I was IRATE. Who's this !@#$#$ to be
telling me what to do as if he's the boss? I was so angry that I even feel
a temporary "void" on the back side of my body. I really can't
put that feeling into words, but it's like for a split second I am so
upset that I hear nothing and I feel a big emptiness. We sent messages
back and forth - I was in a mockery tone and he actually took it as if he
was really the boss.
Well, I was so utterly angry yet I couldn't fully experience the feeling
(since I was in the office). I was trying to control them. Then I took a
break, and I couldn't help but ask myself, why am I getting into this? I
thought I've learned so much that I wouldn't be "sinking to his
level." That's when I suddenly thought, what would Ed say?
I remember Ed
said two people arguing means they are refusing to receive each other. One
rarely succeeds in convincing others through argument. Instead, receive
and validate the other person's feeling, and that's when he can make real
change. Who knows, maybe I am the one to make the change.
And so I become curious in wanting to know his feelings, and then try to
support it. Later he pulled me into a room, and I started by asking him
the question, "Can you tell me how do you feel when you see my
email?" He said he felt it was ridiculous and that I should have
known better not to do it.
response is a judgment and disagree, but then I later realize this was the
same ineffective path I came from, so I ask him to elaborate more instead.
Slowly I feel less and less the need to convince him to understand my
point of view, but just simply validate his feelings by saying,
"Great, thank you for telling me."
In the end, he said to me that I am the only person in the group whom he
felt he was on the same page with. For me, I think I learned the joy of
receiving. When I think of it now, to receive actually gives me
"more" than to win an argument. It is an amazing insight,
and I thank you wholeheartedly for that, Ed.
I'm still thinking about that split second of indescribable feeling of
absolute anger that I suppressed at that time, and I am thinking of
bringing that feeling into the Process to fully experience it for its aha
message. I try to do it here, but I cannot really re-create that feeling.
It was strong yet so short.
I try to replay
what happened in my mind, but I cannot get the same intensity to the angry
feeling. I am hesitant to ask my tribe receivers for help, because I am
afraid that I get stuck just like this, and I'd feel guilty for asking for
help yet making no progress.
There were times
in the past sessions where I so much want to get some feeling response
that I am just impatient and frustrated, instead of the original feeling
that I want to feel. And when I try to feel the impatience or frustration,
I just feel I am going nowhere, feeling pressured and just want to call it
quit yet guilty to want to be a quitter.
I feel there is a lot of chain feelings here. How do I start cracking
it down to the root? Many thanks, especially teaching me a wonderful
way to argument. (To succeed in an argument, start receiving and
junior members of your team to change your trading system without thorough
testing and without including senior members in the decision process seems
choice, to receive instead of argue, demonstrates a good grasp of the
process and marks you as a leader.
job, on the hot seat, is to be willing to follow your feelings; the
receivers' job is to encourage you to develop your forms - to go where no
man can go alone.
might consider taking your feelings (of not getting proper support) into
Good Support System
essential for comfort, safety
Fri, 1 Oct 2004
Attendance & Deadlines
I wanted to know how many people usually attend these workshops and if
there is a deadline for sign up.
workshop is different so there is very little usual about them. The
November 2004 Workshop has 17 registrations, as of October 7.
Workshop has no deadline; the price just keeps going up.
Fri, 1 Oct 2004
Dear Mr. Seykota,
Thanks for your response on slippage and back testing. When I try to
implement your idea of "buy stop at 100 miles away", I find
myself in the classic dilemma - if I put a market buy stop, I may move
the market too much and effectively kill the profit opportunity; if I
put a limit buy stop, I may not get filled at all. And worse, I cannot
really simulate limit orders because even if prices eventually dip below
my limit price, it does not necessarily mean the market can fill ALL my
So when I try to increase the slippage estimate to the worst of the day,
it takes a greater and greater hit in the P&L curve (flatter and
flatter), and I feel more and more disappointment. I feel that very rarely
can a system give a respectable P&L after such conservative (meaning
estimating so bad) slippage assumption. It is so bad that I try to avoid
looking at the P&L under those assumptions. And further I feel that
those really huge moves (which are more often in less liquid markets) are
so difficult to catch because they are moving so fast. I fear if I move
the market too much; I regret if I miss the move - are these the
dipoles for the Polarity Process? Can you please share some of your
costs, such as commissions and slippage, become increasingly severe with
increasing trading frequency.
minimize these effects, use longer term (slower) systems.
trading, slow and steady profits beats fast and choppy whip-saws.
like a Snail
be the fastest way
Fri, 1 Oct 2004
I have been tribing with the Incline Village Tribe for approximately a
year and a half now, but just recently worked the hot seat in a polarity
process. My hot seat approach has always been let the feelings take me
where they take me.
surrendering to the feelings and not thinking them through provides me
with interesting and surprising results. Mainly where did that feeling
come from, or how do those feelings go together. The hot seat has always
been a key to unlock those feelings that I didn’t necessarily associate
with where I was in the here and now.
On September 2nd I was the second person to the hot seat which is always
good for me. The receiving that I had the privilege to take in from [Name]
really got me loosened up to give into to the feelings, but wait ... I
have to think some of the feelings to do polarity to get the final form
created from all my various forms.
This was a
little unsettling (so I felt the unsettledness, not bad). I was working
that night on feelings that related to being just overwhelmed with all the
tasks related to the roles I fill such as, a husband, father, business
partner, entrepreneur, tribe member, etc. Not to mention the
responsibility to letting the inner me just be in the moment. Pretty
daunting stuff and I was drowning in the needs of all these tasks instead
of just immersing myself in them and riding the wave of my life, Kowabunga.
So after [Name]. was done sending we took a 10 minute break. Instead of
the commensurate cookie, nut, or chunk of cheese I prepped my self for the
Let’s see, let’s
organize my feelings around this issue. Okay I was ready to send with my
organized feelings and submit my select forms to the tribe for polarity
The most I had
ever seen done before were 4 separate and distinct forms. Based on my
prior hot seat experiences that might be hard for me since I typically
involve more than 4 forms, not to mention forms that I don’t know I had,
how they fit in, nor do I typically remember all the forms I did. (To bad
this stuff can’t be bottled.)
The tribe reconvened and I assumed my normal starting point knelling on
the rug in the middle of the floor surrounded by my tribe members. I
stated why I was working as I have mentioned above and that I feel
overwhelmed with having to make choices as to which task to fill and which
roles get short changed. I asked if anyone needed clarification, great no
one did so I can start sending my organized thoughts. To my surprise
though my feelings said we don’t work that way, besides were your
friends, don’t worry we’ll take care of you. So in the words of my two
year old daughter, LET’S GO and away I went.
Well as I am told and from the little I remember about 11 forms later and
an hour and a half I was done. I ended in a form of immense peace comfort
and tranquility. I didn’t want to leave that form and since then I
revisit that ending form experienced during that form when the swirling
requirements of my life take me out of the present.
description of the work !
Fri, 1 Oct 2004
Hi Ed !
I request your sanction for a new tribe in Davis, California.
to California state average:
Black race population percentage significantly below state average.
Median age significantly below state average.
Renting percentage above state average.
Length of stay since moving in significantly below state average.
House age significantly below state average.
Number of college students significantly above state average.
Percentage of population with a bachelor's degree or higher
significantly above state average.