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from Ed in Red)
Sun, 27 Mar 2005
Try to Avoid
Health - AP
By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer
CHICAGO - The four familiar words physicians always dread come when the
office visit is ending, doctor's pen clipped back onto the white coat pocket
and hand reaching for the door. "Oh, by the way," the
patient says. What comes next could be as innocuous as a harmless freckle
— or a bombshell. Doctors call it "the doorknob phenomenon."
Doctors' rushed schedules and patients' natural reluctance to reveal
frightening or embarrassing symptoms make those questions at the doorknob
almost inevitable, but medical schools increasingly are teaching students
how to avoid such situations.
Dr. Rita Charon, who runs the narrative medicine program at Columbia
University's medical school, said the phenomenon might even be one reason
that doctors' visits often don't start on time — the previous patient may
have had a doorknob question requiring another exam.
Part of Charon's program encourages doctors-in-training to listen and
better "read" patients and their greatest concerns.
"You really have no idea of what part of life is going to come up and
you really need to signal some desire to hear about it," Charon said.
Charon teaches a method she has adopted with her own new patients, whom she
tells: "'I'm going to be your doctor and I need to know a lot about
your health and your body and your life' — and then I stop talking."
She doesn't write anything down, or check the computer — she just
"When I did this the first time, the patient started crying, saying
'No one ever let me do this before,'" Charon said.
Nancy Conley, a 48-year-old secretary in Springfield, Mo., says
embarrassment led to her own doorknob questions about chronic constipation,
along with a belief that nothing could be done for the condition, caused by
irritable bowel syndrome.
She sometimes talked herself out of mentioning it at all, trying to downplay
it in her mind during the visit "even though I'd go home to my own
little hell," she said.
Conley's advice to doctors for avoiding such resistance is to "slow
A rushed atmosphere can make patients feel uncomfortable about mentioning
bothersome issues. Instead, Conley said, doctors should take a moment to
imagine what it's like to be the patient.
"They're scared, they're taking off work probably to be there ... they
don't want to be humiliated by putting on those stupid little gowns. If a
doctor just stops and says 'Whoa, how would I feel if I were in their shoes
right now,'" that could help break the ice, Conley said.
Charon agreed that doctors' hectic schedules often make visits seem too
short, which can contribute to last-minute questions.
So can the old-style, doctor-centered approach, she said, citing a medical
study published 20 years ago showing that doctors interrupted patients an
average of just 18 seconds into a routine office visit.
"Often it happens because doctors, including myself, don't do a good
job of getting a sense at the beginning of the medical encounter what the
needs are of the patient," said Dr. William Harper, an internist who
teaches communication skills to University of Chicago medical students.
Harper tells students that one remedy is simply asking patients: "Anything
"Just asking that simple question, whether it be at the beginning or
end of the encounter, can be enough to prevent the doorknob phenomenon,"
Margaret Fitzpatrick, a nurse at Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn,
Ill., says patients can help, too, by writing down questions to ask the
doctor before each visit.
Fitzpatrick and two other nurses wrote a book titled "What to Ask the
Doc," designed to help patients take a more active role in their health
care and be quick to say what's on their minds.
"People need to be better prepared for the experience of going to the
doctor," Fitzpatrick said. "So that if there is this suspicious
mole on the neck, take the responsibility of bringing it up ... rather than
hoping that the doctor will see it and bring it up with you."
help the sender
having to act it out.
Sun, 27 Mar 2005
May I reproduce the information below on my commercial website -- with full
credit and URL link to Ed Seykota and The Trading Tribe?
may link to my site in such a way that does not imply any kind of
endorsement of your site.
Sun, 27 Mar 2005
i am new to this business, as i am now looking on for becoming a trader or i
may be wrong also as i have just taken the sub-brokership of one of the main
brokers, and i have started making some of the clients.
for them it is me who have to suggest them.
so i heard about this site in the tv program of cnvc tv18
so please give me the needed help
might start here.
proceed to SVO-p
Sat, 26 Mar 2005
Fundamentals Catch up with George
PARIS, March 24 -
A French appeals court on Thursday upheld the conviction of George Soros,
the former fund manager, on insider trading charges, rejecting his
argument that his investment in a French bank in 1988 was not based on
Mr. Soros has been
active in American politics, opposing the war in Iraq and spending millions
in 2004 opposing the election of President Bush to a second term.
to be inside something.
Sat, 26 Mar 2005
How to Stay Alive
After you left the brokerage firm about 30 years ago and you started
managing a few small accounts, what did you do for a living in meantime
(while those account grew).
By the way I am 23 and I fell in love with trading 2 years ago.
trends and live below your means.
Date: Fri, 25 Mar
Our First Tribe
Last night (Mar. 24th) the [City] Trading Tribe held its first meeting with
2 people in attendance.
We start the
meeting by acknowledging and cleaning up some broken agreements to call and
e-mail each other during the past several days and to write up what we
want to get from our tribe participation and what we see ourselves bringing
to the tribe as our contribution to others. We remake our agreements and
re-establish our integrity regarding keeping our word.
Next, I brief my fellow member on a 3rd member who will be joining us at our
next meeting. We discuss other potential members who are out there.
Next, we do Check-ins with the intent of continuing to get to know each
other and finding an issue for each to bring to the hot seat.
My fellow member goes first on the hot seat and his issue involves pressure
and anxiety he feels over fulfilling his responsibilities to his family, if
something bad should happen to him personally, professionally or
financially. He does a great job of getting into his body sensations and
Forms. He works hard and completes in about 35 minutes. Toward the end, he
reports a nice realization and I jokingly say “I think that’s what they
call an AHA”, while we are still officially in the process. We chuckle and
I am pleased with our success.
Before the meeting I think I will be great at
receiving, but I find I feel confused about what to do or say as he
struggles and I want to help him experience his emotions and Forms. I
make some blunders in what I ask him, but no serious damage seems to be done
to his experience. He looks up at me several times when I ask him
specifics about what he feels in his body (we are not saying the hot
seat’s name) and I tell him to “stay down” and with his body
and experience and that works better. I see his face is red and ask him if
he feels hot and he affirms so I ask him to feel more of that. I get a hunch
he is nauseous and ask him, but he says no, so I drop it. I propose a
couple of scenarios that I think could trigger his issue (other than the
one he starts with) and one does not bother him at all. It is not his issue.
Another is after his AHA and he states he is able to handle it or just
accept it. We complete and do a check-in and he describes a “tingle” up
the front of his body he felt a few minutes before. I remember this is
included in the items Ed writes about in Phase Two of the process and tell
him. He is feeling capable of handling or just accepting whatever life
brings him in regard to his issue tonight. At this point we are both feeling
very pleased that we have successfully done the process. I do okay at
receiving but realize I still have a lot to learn. Luckily, I have a great
teacher – my fellow member who next receives for me like a skilled
My first hot seat.
I have two or three potential hot seat issues but settle on my fear that I
cannot do the hot seat itself. Specifically, I don’t think I can feel
emotions in my body at all and have been worrying about this more and
more as our first real meeting approaches. As I mentioned above I
thought I would be a great receiver from the beginning. I was wrong about
that and Fred is about to teach me I am wrong on both counts.
I have forgotten a lot of my hot seat experience but remember that my first
body sensation was a stiff and aching neck. My receiver is a natural and is
receiving, encouraging and guiding me in ways I remember reading about in
FAQ’s but had just had trouble doing for him.
I keep my eyes
closed during almost all my hot seat and this helps me stay in my body. With
his help my neck stuff fades and now I have a pain in my right shoulder.
That fades and now I feel pain in my left rib area. At some point I feel
sort of a weird sensation in my heart area and later a jab in my stomach
like with a little knife from the inside. Some sensations repeat and some
don’t. My receiver pushes me to experience and amplify the somatics and
the emotions and thoughts I am having.
I think the thing that triggered the first body
sensation was my belief that I started this tribe, but I can’t even do the
process right. I am a f---ing fraud. Receiver gleefully jumps all over that
one and soon I am also blurting out that I can’t trade; I can’t write;
can’t publish my books; can’t live my life, period.
I am a fraud and a
phony. Receiver picks up that I feel humiliation and embarrassment and so he
asks for more of that and asks “What if everybody knows you are a fraud?”
I sit with that
for just a little while and just start laughing. There is some release as I
realize I don’t care who knows my “dark secret”. I hope that it must
be almost over. I want a break. I want to cut my profits short and get off
the hot seat. Receiver has other ideas. He is very thorough -- lack of
thoroughness is one of my problems in life. He has me check and re-check
emotions and somatics. Both of us as receivers lead hot seat in body scans
but he does a better job or re-checking and testing. It really works for me
when he leads me around my body and I ask him a few times to back up and ask
me to feel my neck (or whatever) again.
At some point I go into this Form that is very primitive or perhaps fetal. I
start squirming and have my upper arms at my sides but my forearms bent up
towards my head. My hands are sort of clenched but not into a real fist.
what the emotion is and I do not know what it is or where I am. I am (or
it is) struggling and trying to move. But I can’t move or escape or
something? I do not feel my body being squeezed as in the birth canal, just
limited in movement and in awareness.
Later in check-in
I tell Receiver that many years ago my mother told me she was out of it from
pain killers at my birth . She had a hard time with the birth and the
doctors heavily drugged her. Several people have told me that kind of thing
affects a person’s consciousness and awareness and I have never healed it.
Maybe this is what this Form is about?
I don’t know but
I am very grateful to have experienced such a powerful Form. With help from
Receiver, the Form fades, then later returns a couple of times with
diminished intensity, as he leads me in re-checks, before fading for good.
The final body pains that I remember were all in my mid to lower spine and
since I really have some vertebra that are out right now, I think I am about
done and am feeling pretty complete.
But again Receiver
is very thorough and thinks the process can help me dissolve this pain too.
I am willing to keep going. However, at some point I make a joke and raise
one finger up in the air and say “I need some professional help over here,
I need a chiropractor and some massage therapists”.
At another point I
am leaning forward in the chair stretching (yoga-like). And then I start to
breath and try to run energy into my back (Quantum Touch). I stop doing
these and sit up and tell Receiver what I was doing and say that all I am
going to do is the TT process. After we agree that the process is over we do
an informal check in and end the meeting feeling very good with our results
for a first meeting by two guys who have never done the process before.
I lie in bed last night filled with a wonderful and profound sense of
well-being. This morning I awake realizing that the arm position of the “fetal
Form” is the same as the arm position that I have been getting into for I
know not how long, when I am sleeping. I sometimes lock my elbows and wrists
so tightly that I can make my hands and even forearms numb. I will observe
if this shifts now and take it back to the hot seat if appropriate.
I look forward to the next Tribe meeting and Hot Seat experience. Thank you,
Ed, for creating the Trading Tribe and sharing it.
might consider taking your desire to work hard, manage it actively and to do
it right into the process as entry points.
and Carrying the Bag
it just where it is
Fri, 25 Mar 2005
Charts Fool the Pros
An interesting experiment that I tried on some self-described technical
charting gurus on a financial site's forum was to provide them with daily
HLOC data from a number of different stocks along with a set of HLOC
computer generated data. They weren't able to guess which charts were
computer generated and which were real better than chance.
It was fun to watch them talk about support levels and breakouts and other
indicators when looking at the computer generated charts as if they could
predict the future! ;-)
However, they consistently were able to identify real charts that had
their timeline reversed (Newest to Oldest) as being bogus. That was a
I'd like to know more about the reverse-time scale experiment - in
particular, what charts you use and how you measure the results.
chartists might be responding to incidental clues on the charts, like
backwards numbers and letters.
not, the experiment may indicate something deeply non-random about chart
measure the obvious
Fri, 25 Mar 2005
When building automated trading systems, do you ever consider counter-trend
Have you built trading systems specifically for the stock market?
Do your successful systems work as well with the stock market as with the
Make happiness your number one priority.
depends upon ourselves.
are, that they might have joy. Scripture
systems seem to break down in the area of risk-management.
in counter-trend systems sometimes seems to occur just before big run-ups in
can apply trend following to stocks, bonds, futures, FX, real estate, and
desire to be happy can interfere with contentment.
best way to make people happy
to play the banjo
a little while.
Fri, 25 Mar 2005
A couple of questions.
1. Is the general trading tribe approach to emotions to experience them all
fully - whether we deem them positive or negative? Is the idea to stop
fighting our feelings and just let them in the door?
2. As a trader, do you still, after all of these years trading, find your
emotions going up and down with your account performance?
3. For most trend
traders, this has been a difficult quarter. Do you find that you really have
to "work" to keep pulling the trigger on new signals?
4. Did you believe you would be a successful trader even before you ever
5. Do you think
you need this kind of confidence to make money?
couple of answers: yes, yes.
few more: yes, yes and yes.
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
I wish to review my proclamation of December 31, 2003:
I wish to get $20,000 dollars to honor a small commitment and use the rest
to fund my trading accounts with risk capital.
I didn't get the $20,000 dollars up to now, and I commit to getting them.
I view myself trading small, although in a very professional-like manner,
with adequate and common sense risk management, keeping a smooth rising
During 2004 I finished coding my own trend following system. On January 2nd
I started running it, in a very professional-like manner, with adequate and
common sense risk management. I am also trading small. This year though, I
commit myself to trade "enough".
I wish to get a promotion in my job, with improved wages, in my current
I have just got a promotion in my job, with improved wages. I also have
passed an entrance exam for a public job title with a good mark. I don't
have the others candidates' results yet, but one position is likely mine. One
interesting fact is that both opportunities offer more or less the same
wages I expected to earn. This year, I commit myself to double up the
I wish to date a beautiful, loving, caring and family-orientated woman, for
a serious, long-term (marriage) commitment.
I don't have it up to now. I commit to do it. I also commit to marry, and
I also wish to proclaim my intention to continue my juridical studies and
prepare myself adequately for the entrance exam into the magistracy.
On December 2003 I gathered with some family members to proclaim my
intentions, and I feel like doing the same now to proclaim my new ones, in
Easter. I also submit these to FAQ as I become increasingly aware of the
power of intention and effectiveness of the Hardball Process.
Happy Easter, Ed!
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
I note a recent post (Wed, 16 Mar 2005: "Follow Up") that
seems to offer scientific support of the techniques you mention in your
response to the post.
There is other interesting research that offers support to techniques such
as TTP and meditation; some involves monitoring the neurological activity of
Tibetan monks during meditation. I think that the scientific research
related to TTP, meditation, etc is strewn about among different fields
related to neuroscience, psychology, etc.
Some interesting science on the topic of somatic expression is presented
in Charles Darwin's "The Expression of Emotion in Man and Animals"
which appears in 1872, and Darwin even references some work that predates
an early receiver.
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
Good day. Your site is intriguing.
What is your opinion on the significance of back testing trading systems?
I realize that if you answer, it will be cryptic, but I look forward to it
help you gain experience
optimize your methods.
to administering test.
a function of context
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
Dear Mr. Seykota,
... I'm somewhat lost in what direction I should continue with my stock
market programming work, and I'm hoping that you'll be able to offer some
suggestions. I've been looking for school programs in that area, but I
haven't found anything spectacular.
Everything I come
across seems fake, and I'm positive I don't have the enthusiasm for those.
If school isn't an option, I'd be just as happy getting experience working
somewhere that, again, doesn't seem fake, but so far I haven't found
The few places
I've talked to seemed like sales jobs, and it's not so much that I don't
want to be a salesman, as much as it seems like those sales are based on a
lie. I mean I don't believe that fundamental analysis has to be wrong, but
I'm sure that I would not be able to claim that I can predict the future,
and it seems that's what these stockbrokers are doing.
The other thing is that I am running out of time. Eventually, I'm going
to have to get a "real" job, I can't be a library bum
programming isn't the only thing I'm interested in, but it's on the top of
list; it's what I end up working on when I'm supposed to be doing something
else. If there's an opportunity to continue working on this stuff, I want to
make sure I find it.
might consider taking your feelings of running out of time to a Tribe
you want a project, you might like this one:
simulation, the optimal time constants for an exponential moving
average crossover system that trades the S&P cash market, going
back as far as you have data.
Buy and sell the morning after you get the signal.
Trade one contract, both long and short. Use frequency (annual
compounding return over largest drawdown percent) for your bliss
the Trading Tribe University
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
I am asked to provide a brief description of Tribe Meetings and TTP, my
Trading Tribe Meetings and Trading Tribe Process (TTP):
On account of its dependence upon complex forms of non-verbal communication,
TTP tends to be best understood best through in-person observation and
participation. That said, some of the underlying concepts are comprehensible
through a written medium and the best resource for written explanations of
TTP are at: www.tradingtribe.com .
Trading is a profession in which self-sabotage is quite easy and, as such,
traders are rarely able to achieve and maintain success while carrying
around “psychological baggage.”
baggage, or deeply repressed feelings that one labels as “bad” or “negative,”
are typically feelings that one is unwilling to experience and express, on
account of these feelings being perceived as “the enemy.” The
subconscious tends to find a way to express these feelings in an effort to
get the conscious mind to experience the feelings and also to communicate
the feelings to others - and this expression need to be consciously
voluntary. Sometimes, the desire to repress these feelings is so strong that
the subconscious is forced to “replay” the feelings over and over again
at higher and higher level of intensity, often building up to a pinnacle at
which psychically and physically harmful dramas are acted out. Alternatively
stated; “the feelings we are unwilling to feel are
the ones that run our lives.”
The essential objective or “purpose” of TTP is to facilitate
communication between the conscious and subconscious mind, and build bridges
between the two so that conscious-subconscious communication takes place
more readily in day to day life. The result of this often involves a release
of long-standing repressed feelings and a dissipation of the associated
long-standing dramas. So, although TTP has “Trading” in the name, it is
not domain specific.
TTP is not a philosophical framework, religion, or psychological/spiritual
doctrine. TTP is a set of tools and techniques (a “process”) which
facilitate the attainment of the above mentioned objective.
Meetings typically consist of a brief check in followed by each member who
chooses to take issues to the tribe spending some time working on the
"hot seat." On the hot seat, the “sender” transmits their
feelings via somatic expression to the “receivers.” The receivers, in
turn, validate the feelings of the sender and encourage the sender to fully
experience any and all feelings and forms that come up – especially the
ones that the sender likes the least.
total immersion in the experience of these feelings typically leads to
moments of profound insight in which the sender sees through to the
underlying nature of the feelings and associated dramas.
stated, the above mentioned objective of communication between the conscious
and subconscious mind is met, and the subsequent dissipation of
long-standing dramas often takes place.
description. I notice you don't mention SVO-p as part of the
passive [I am asked to provide] does not reveal the identity of the
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
I've enjoyed and benefited from my read of "Toxic Parents" and I'm
enjoying "Trend Following" and have benefited from my new and
rather limited tribe experience with TTP.
Most (99%) of the emails
I've received from having my name and email address in the directory,
however, have been from Africa which, it seems, is full of relatively
wealthy people who want to send me vast sums of money if I will only, first,
send $50k to them for shipping and handling.
In the interest of
my security and sound sleep would you please remove my last name from the
directory if it's not too much trouble?
wonder how you know that your listing in the directory "causes"
your junk mail.
wonder how removing your last name only might "cause" the junk
mail to disappear.
listing is now absent from the directory.
address is a gimme.
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
In addition to all the TTP-related experiences I've just told you about,
this week I have been paying particular attention to my other feelings and
Reading back one of the old FAQ (9/03), you've suggested someone to put a
sign in the office that says "I am in the business of winning, and
business is good!!", and see what kind of feelings come about it.
I thought that was pretty neat, and so I try it too. I print out the slogan,
and I find myself uncomfortable putting it in an obvious place. I
feel if I do that, it's boastful, arrogant, and perhaps even jinxing. So I
put it behind my monitor, where I could clearly see it when I'm at my seat,
but other people would not be aware of it unless they pay attention. I'm
very curious about my act.
Furthermore, I feel uncomfortable saying it OUT LOUD. I repeat it to myself
in my mind, and the interesting thing I notice is I tend to say it in a very
military-like / discipline manner. It's like I'm reporting forcefully to a
supervisor in the military, "I am in the business of winning, and
business is good, SIR!" I find it really strange.
Another thing I notice is I get upset when people don't do their part, or if
they are denying their responsibility, either by making ambiguous comments
so they cannot be pinned down, or say showing up late, or just simply
promising to do something but don't deliver.
I think I have an
issue here, and perhaps the cold hard truth may be I'm just like them and I
hate it? I guess to the extent I accept people who don't take
responsibility, they'll keep showing up in my life? Hmmm, sounds like lots
of issue to bring to the hot seat.
might consider putting up a new sign to say it the way it is.
do not like
the truth sets you free.
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
TTP (Part II):
Going with the Flow
See: TTP (FAQ: 1/24/05).
I was planning to go to the bathroom before leaving my office to TTP.
However, as I said good-bye to my coworkers, one of them who had a rough day
with the boss wanted to fume out a little. So I gave him my attention for
several minutes, and then when he's done, I left the building straight
without using the bathroom and rushed to the subway station instead.
It was raining hard, and there was a lot of people waiting at the platform,
and I knew something was wrong. I've heard that the local trains have been
detoured to the express track, and so no train has been stopping at the
station for a while. The subway employee at the booth didn't know what's
going on and didn't make any announcement. When the angry passengers pressed
for an answer, he just said that there would be a train coming soon.
I ran into a colleague who's been waiting for a while. We waited and no
train came, and I was wondering what I should do. Do I still go to TTP, even
though I'd be 20 minutes late? Do I go back to the office to do some more
work? Do I find a way to go home? Somehow it reminded me of the Breathwork
weekend, when my commitment was to arrive at the office by 8 am, and you
gave me all kinds of reasons (subway problem, traffic jam, etc.) for me not
keeping my commitment.
I have this
anger feeling that I've been wanting to take it to TTP, so I choose to
go. And heck, even if I can't go as a sender, I still want to receive and
support others. The bottom line is, I have a commitment to TTP, and I am not
going to let some subway problem as my excuse.
The mob got more and more impatient, and more and more upset. At last the
subway employee at the booth gave out coupons for those who couldn't wait
any longer, and he finally announced that there would be no train. I was
waiting in line to get my coupon and was ready to run to another station
when suddenly, a train came!!!
One of my
colleagues has just left, and it was like classic capitulation where an
investor keeps holding to a losing position, and finally couldn't take it
anymore, sold it at the bottom tick and the market exploded in the other
I took that train and ran to our TTP meeting site. I was 20 minutes late and
was just in time to be the last person to check in. I told them about the
feeling of frustration that I've been experiencing for the last week through
various dramas. We split into two groups.
I was ready and I took the hot seat. I thought about going to the bathroom
several times before we started, but I want the hot seat so much that I
can't wait any, and I didn't go. At about a third of the way into the
process of roaring and yelling when I quiet down a little bit for a rest, I
decide that I really want to use the bathroom, so I just go with the flow. I
stand up and go. As I pee, I see a trash can, and intuitively I decide to
bring it back with me, knowing that it'll be very useful. Now looking back,
I think it is because of having that trash can that I know I don't need to
hold anything back. I spit, I puke, I throw up. I go all the way in feeling
frustrations and cry from the bottom of my stomach.
As I look back at the experience, I realize how "going with the
flow" really helps. There isn't really much to figure out "to go
or not to go," but just "go with the flow," and trusting it
is the right thing. If I went to the bathroom at any other time, either
before the process (won't be aware of the trash can) or after the process
(too late), I wouldn't get the trash can, and I wouldn't be able to go as
deep as I did. I would be holding back, worrying if I really puke out I'll
make a mess, you know?
you are willing to get pissed off
in a while
don't have to get pissed on
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
Frustration / Annoyance
I had an amazing TTP experience last night.
It began with last week when I was about to get on the hot seat, but someone
interrupted with a question and eventually another person showed an even
"hotter" issue, and so we had him on the hot seat instead, and it
was a great experience. I was very pleased I was able to help him on
So I didn't address my issue of frustration and irritation remain, and
somehow it intensified throughout the week. I got tangled into some dramas
where I felt REALLY angry and blood rushing to the head - when I was talking
to a phone company rep, then with my boss and colleague, and later on even
in an email I sent to a mailing list. I found myself very easily irritated,
annoyed, frustrated, angry, upset, etc.
I took it to TTP last night and jumped on the hot seat. I have been feeling
agitated all week. I roar and cry out as loud as I can, making facial
expressions, clenching my fists, as if to rip someone.
I feel the
frustration of very upset yet not knowing what to do or how to express it. I
keep yelling out loud despite my throat hurts, and I keep growling, hissing
and making all sorts of angry noises. And it grows to a shouting / grumbling
words only I can understand - "I've had enough!!! Today it's either you
or me! I'm not backing down!" I keep yelling and roaring like that,
even though I don't quite know who that "you" are. Perhaps
"you" are the feeling (that I do not accept) that has been ruling
over my life? Or the feeling that has been making me stop and never stick to
things long enough? I don't know.
Tears and mucus. At some point during all these shouting and stuff, I cry
out. (This cry is with tears) That feels good. I cry (with tears), then cry
(shouting), then cry more (tears), then cry even more (yelling). I am
holding a trash can and keep spitting, crying, yelling, growling - as
frustrated, angry, upset, irritated as I can ever be. The receivers do a
great job in encouraging me to go further, deeper, even more. I ask them to
help me combine all the forms together ... I was feeling the pressure, the
yelling, the clenching, the tension, the crying, the spitting, the choking
altogether. Yeah, I feel like being choked, and I really throw up. And we
keep doing this, and I puke several times. I literally "let things
out." I cry out loud to the trash can as if to let out every
frustration I have in my life, and I choke more, puke more, spit more,
At the end of all these, after I let go enough of it, I don't feel the anger
any more. Instead, there's a feeling of love, compassionate and acceptance.
I don't feel hostile to the rude customer rep from the phone company; I
don't feel angry to my boss. In fact, I search for all the people whom I
dislike at times in my life. There isn't many, and to all of them I think I
can accept them as who they are. I hold no grudge against them anymore. I
wish them well. I feel peace.
I'm very pleased with the experience. I find it irony to know that the
best receivers are when the sender doesn't even know they exist. The
receivers only need to help the sender to get back on track if he's off, and
sometimes help push him over the hump to dig even deeper. But mostly, it's
great when I don't even hear their words and just into my feelings, fully. I
wholeheartedly appreciate their effort.
I do have a question here, sir. It seems like I have a lot of pent-up
feelings that I need to let them out, and I literally did by throwing up and
spitting out. And after I let them out, I don't feel anger any more but
loving and compassionate.
It seems like
hatred and love are not the opposites, but they're together.
Once I remove
the hatred / anger / frustration, I feel love. But that's not TTP, is it? I
expect to find a positive intention for the anger, to embrace it. Instead, I
feel like I've just let go of the hatred and releasing all those pent-up
feelings, and what remain feels good. So did I do it "wrong?" Is
my process "complete?"
you fully experience anger, you may stop seeing it as a good or bad feeling.
may see it as just another indicator on your emotional indicator panel.
just passes through as you get back to the Zero Point.
nothing else can.
Thu, 24 Mar 2005
Page Not Found
If you try to click "trading guidelines" link (Donchian Materials)
you get Page Not
Regards from newbie,
you for the catch. The page now stands, correctly.
Wed, 23 Mar 2005
... when you were visiting us, you gave examples of growth of one group of
animals and how it gets checked beyond a certain point by another group - I
unfortunately do not recall the exact names you gave (didn't have my
notebook on me! :-) ). Would appreciate your input.
Thank you for your time.
and rabbits can form an oscillating system in which the two populations
alternately grow and check each others growth.
To prevent rabbits from demolishing your crops, build hedge rows for
them. This keeps enough rabbits alive to keep enough coyotes alive to
keep the rabbits in check.
wonder which part of time is your time and which part is my time and
what rights my time confers on me.
it's All in the Now
is nothing to divide,
your time and no my time.
Wed, 23 Mar 2005
I would like to attend the May workshop, and will fire off a check today.
Our Tribe is taking form. We are still two, though the we have lost one and
This is positive.
The first member seemed not to be interested in the process, but used our
meetings as a mechanism to draw me into his dramas.
derailed the process despite my constant reminding that we needed to stay
I was hesitant
about being more forthright in my insistence that we not continue to veer
off course, hoping that eventually he would come around. In hindsight,
it was like hanging onto a losing position hoping for it to turn around.
The arrival of the
newest member, who is well acquainted with and enthusiastic about the
process, flushed out member #1's true intentions, and he soon expressed his
desire to longer be involved.
We had our first meeting with the newest member and myself last week, and it
was leaps and bounds more significant than anything we had done prior. New
member took the hot seat, experiencing six or seven forms, and an AHA.
When asked if he
were interested in reintegrating his forms, he appeared too drained from a
relatively intense session, so I decided to let it go. It looks like we
might be coming out of a congestion phase with the development of our Tribe.
We would like more members though.
I am feeling a churning in my stomach right now, as my system has generated
a 13.5% DD in the last 5 trading days (albeit off of a new equity high).
While this is not outside the realm of possibilities given my testing, it is
certainly out on the tail. I am uneasy as three of my positions are right on
their initial stop loss, and another one was exited today (on its initial
stop loss). My testing shows that positions rarely reach their initial stop
Here is what is significant I think. As my positions continue to work
against me, I find I am unable to concentrate on anything. Completing
this email is labored. I find myself watching the markets intently,
helpless. When my positions are working in my favor, I am much more
productive and relatively clear thinking.
When I asked you a question at the last workshop, you derided me for
I try very hard to
overcome that need as I know it is unattainable, but I feel like I need it
now as a drug addict might need a fix.
I have done a lot of work, yet I know that I have left stones unturned. I
fear an Achilles heel. Were I long fear and uncertainty I'd be killing it
you are drawing in to someone's drama you are not receiving.
you want to deliver a constant reminder to someone, remind yourself that
whatever the sender is doing is already exactly on task.
might consider taking your feeling of wanting to know what your positions
are going to do into the process.
sometimes a proxy
fear of commitment.
Tue, 22 Mar 2005
Notes from a
(on Ed's book)
The book seems to
build and build. By the end, I can’t wait to be part of a Tribe. I think
you describe Fred and the Conscious Mind very well. There is so much in it
that I have to read it a few times to really “grok” it, but I see that
it is a template for gaining experiential wisdom.
It is in the
middle of the book on to the end where you start giving examples that the
process comes together and starts making sense. I have been using the DIM
process most of my life like recording affirmations in my own voice and
playing them back to myself.
The most powerful
DIM growth I had was with three affirmations from “Guide to a Higher
“I accept myself
completely here and now”, “I take full responsibility for everything I
experience here and now”, and “I have everything I need to enjoy my here
and now”. Playing this over and over in my head for a few months blew me
right off the continent over to Kauai where I met my Guru.
Since my Guru has
passed in 2001, I am back to DIM. This book has really gotten me excited
since this is the first time I can see that progress can be made in a group.
I have never been to a psychologist, or catharsis group sharing, even though
I have many psychological problems (nothing that seriously effects me or my
relationships, just keeps me from being all I can be, enjoying life more,
and from relating to others better.) You put into action the statement: “The
group helps the individual, and the individual helps the group.”
The SVO-p is great, though it is a little hard on the reader at first. As
the reader gets used to it it becomes powerful. As a young person I felt
that most of us live in two states: the past feeling guilt or remorse of
what we could have done differently, and the future where we are afraid and
worry about what will happen to us. Both of these states do not exist and
never have. The past never was and the future never will be.
There is only the
infinite present and most of us miss it entirely for 80 to 90 years! I have
felt this way for 30+ years. My Guru called it the "eternity of the
moment". Sorry to babble on here, I look forward to getting into a
tribe and learning the process. I have really been a receiver most of my
adult life as an excellent teacher, and look forward to being a sender also.
Tue, 22 Mar 2005
Hi Banjo Ed,
I would like ("want" to keep it in SVOP) to know if you have the
trading software [Name]? If you do have it, do you want to make an
unauthorized copy for me?
I don't think i
want to pay USD 2,000 for a software ... Do you know this software? What is
your own opinion about it? No Bullshit like "FAQ does not endorse
people or products" ,cut this crap ok?
i admire you a
lot, and I feel very intimate (many years reading your tutorials) to tell
you this. One more question ... What is the reason to endorse turtle trader?
... I know I am very annoying but i am really curious ... i guess i´ll take
this as an entry point to my TTP session ok, but answer all these questions
in a direct manner.
does not endorse people or commercial products, See ground rules.
site at www.turtletrader.com
offers a wealth of information for traders, all for free.
might consider taking your anger to a Tribe Meeting.
to the Pokey
attempting to steal software
can act out anger
various antisocial Ways
your can take it to a tribe meeting
find its positive intention.
Tue, 22 Mar 2005
I got your address from Ed Seykota's Trading Tribe Site.
I am an Industrial designer by training. Went into Fashion Design and had a
collection under my name for many years. Now I am studying trading and
trading as well. I have read some books on the subject and a few names keep
popping up over and over.
Ed Seykota is one
of the names that keep coming up again and again. I am very fascinated by
this profession now and would like to meet and talk to other traders who are
passionate about this profession too.
My secret wish is to meet and be in the company of Ed Seykota's mind and
energy some day in person. Besides trading I am fascinated by his thoughts
and work on Radial Momentum. He truly is a thinking machine, and I like
that. What has been your experience with Ed? I would like to know.
I would be thankful to you if you could send me some information about your
group in [City] too.
Thanks in advance and hope to hear from you soon.
writer can meet me at the Workshop
if he wants to do some thinking with me, he can come out to Lake Tahoe and
help me with some puzzles.
You can use Maxwell's equations to derive the speed of light from e0
and m0. I want to know how to derive m0 in the
I would like to see a set of two differential equations that you can solve
for the frequency of light.
can scarcely avoid the conclusion that light consists in the transverse
undulations of the same medium which is the cause of electric and magnetic
Mon, 21 Mar 2005
I just read Richard Dennis' interview in the current issue of
"Technical Analysis of Stocks & Commodities." I find some of
his quotes very curious and interesting, and wonder whether you hold similar
opinion as he does:
"Think about what we had 20 or 25 years ago. The paradigm was that
unknown information seeped into the market and gradually moved price. You go
to a currency market, and there's the same fundamental forces but you also
have this tremendous flow of inside information. It isn't unknown inside
information, but it's bureaucratic. It's bureaucrats at the Bundesbank
telling the hedge fund guys what they're going to do. Now as a trend starts,
it explodes immediately so that the trend-followers can't get in until it's
over. It isn't slow. It isn't indirect. It's all at once."
"System followers see a signal in financials that they think is the
same as a soybean signal, but it's not. The structure of the trend
"Nine out of ten things that worked 20 years ago don't work now. In the
last year, only a subset of those breakouts worked relative to the 20 to 40
ranges that worked previously."
"Fundamentals seep into price series. There's a corrupting element to
trends when markets get overwhelmed by government action, or officials
leaking information. That's when the patterns get muddied. If you look
backward in time, the patterns tend to suggest more of a pure
trend-following. This other kind of price movement is based more on
short-term information known to a few trader groups. It makes a big
difference in the price series. It distorts the natural formation of
"This is probably the year of the fundamentals. I turn on TV and see T.
Boone Pickens grinning every time crude's up five bucks. Fundamentalists
would say crude is bullish whether it's at a 10-week high or low. They're
more likely than the trend guys to want to buy at a 10-week low, which means
if they're right, the trend guys are out of luck."
Thank you for the website and gracious sharing.
an incontrovertible long-term trend follower like Mr. Turtle himself finally
turns into a short-term fundamentalist, it might indicate the markets are
about to trend big time.
don't think trading strategies are as vulnerable to not working if people
know about them, as most traders believe.
what you are doing is right, it will work even if people have a general idea
always say you could publish rules in a newspaper and no one would follow
them. The key is consistency and discipline.
Mon, 21 Mar 2005
I wondered if you had any experience of deafness and its effect.
tend to hear what they want to hear.
a string to a button.
the button in your ear.
the string in your shirt pocket.
people standing closer
talking more distinctly.
Sun, 20 Mar 2005
I decided to take a break from trading for a two year period and decided the
study the psychology aspect of the market.
I in essence,
became a little more religious. This was a good thing. I have belief in a
one divinity. Nonetheless, my studies still continue. I have since
understood that anger leads to depression.
A human must use his or her intellect to make decisions. I have found
that many market participants use their emotions, much to their demise.
The greatest difficulty we face is to make decisions with our intellect and the
discipline required to disable the emotions function.
[Since 2000 I began trading a trend-following system] which enabled my at
the outset to restructure the mind, to stick with trends and cut losses
quickly. I do believe that trading is a teachable science, however,
preparation to discipline the mindset is quintessential. Accepting the new
trading mentality and thought processing is crucial if anyone wishes to
Now I maintain this course: the trend follower and ignoring all of the
sizzle. Some people ask me what I think about ABC and I reply: I have no
clue if a CEO exists or not.
I remember you said the same thing when you visited Toronto (I think it was
The head trader at one of the largest funds asked you where you thought Gold
would be trading at in the future. Your answer was, "I don't
they were all expecting some target price etc ... but well it's true we can
not predict the a future event, otherwise we wouldn't need to trade.
I find it simply remarkable yet humbling as to how I have been able to stay
really haven't changed, and I often ponder why essence transcends
might consider this framing of your statements:
in a k-not leads to depression.
get in trouble by not using their emotions as allies.
the emotional function and trying to make decisions intellectually leads
question, "Why?" is fundamentally unanswerable.
way you can test this framing is to see if you can figure out the feeling of
wanting to figure out the same feeling.
is to try to figure out the positive intention for all the feelings you
have a Conscious Mind
communicate feelings to CM
CM can experience them
share it with Fred
Fred can learn how to react.
is how we manufacture wisdom.
we don't like our feelings
tie them in k-nots
do not experience them.
wisdom manufacture process,
draws drama into our lives.
Sun, 20 Mar 2005
How do i become a member pl guide me
Thanks & Regards
prvs nswr - wht izit wif-u gyz ?
Sun, 20 Mar 2005
Wants to get
into the Family
I hv come to know abt the said trading tribe. I am an active new trader. How
to get in to the family of yr TT. Pl email -
cn gt n by rdng ths wbst
Sun, 20 Mar 2005
Many are Called
and Few are Chosen
While reading the old FAQ (9/03), one of the posts quotes your Market
Wizards interview, "Many are called and few are chosen," which is
your answer when Schwager asked, "Why do so many traders fail in the
May I ask you, so who's doing the calling, and who's doing the choosing?
choose your own calling.
hog caller's calling
to call hogs
may or may not
to answer the call.
Sat, 19 Mar 2005
Emotions of Investing
Hi Ed !
Is MIT getting ready to hear about TTP ?
Here is an excerpt
from recent LA Times article:
Researchers led by Lo at MIT studied working traders during their normal
He wired 10 currency speculators at a Boston brokerage to sensors monitoring
heart rate, breathing, blood pressure, body temperature and skin
By the end of the
day, the traders had made 1,200 split-second trades, averaging $3 million to
$5 million apiece.
His team plotted the biological indicators of stress, exuberance and tension
against real-time profit and loss. He repeated the experiment at the Boston
Market trades, the sensors showed, were the stuff of sweaty palms, heavy
breathing and pounding pulses. Snap judgments, honed by intuition,
outweighed high-minded economic calculations.
These were "gut" decisions.
Contrary to traditional economics — which considers only rational
deliberation — such measures of market panic and exultation begin to
document how involuntary emotions affect the rise and fall of stocks.
Already, preliminary findings about the balance sheet of the brain have
scholars rethinking the meaning of money itself.
The same reward circuitry activated by cocaine, sports cars, attractive
faces and jokes is activated by money. Until now, economists have assumed
that money was prized not for itself but only for what it could buy.
Moreover, the prospect of winning money activates specific brain regions in
a way that the threat of losing it does not, researchers at Stanford
University recently demonstrated.
Scientists are not sure how the electrical snap of synapses adds up to a
financial decision, or how these insights might be assembled into a working
theory of economic behavior.
"Sooner or later, you have to engage the issue of free will," said
Glimcher, the New York University scientist. "When we finally
understand the human brain, all human behavior will be predictable."
elite MIT research team evidently tries everything but the obvious - namely,
to open an account and see what it's feels like to trade.
of Attaching Electrodes
he learns how MIT
wasting his $1,550,000 gift
of Attaching Electrodes
UNR (Reno) grad student
only charges $50.00
Date: Fri, 18 Mar
i am new to equity trade
would be grate full what r the basics one shd follow to be a prudent
what r terms lik P/E., E P S,
what r the factors which determines a share,s value
ths wbst ... u mt lrn 2 spl 2
Thu, 17 Mar 2005
Before my TTP experiences, it was "I think, therefore I am." Now,
it is: "I feel, therefore I live." Thanks so much for your
friendship and wise counsel.