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March 17 - 27


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(Quotes from Ed in Red)


Sun, 27 Mar 2005


Receiving is Good Medicine




Doctors Try to Avoid

Doorknob Phenomenon

Sunday, 3/27/2005

Health - AP

By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - The four familiar words physicians always dread come when the office visit is ending, doctor's pen clipped back onto the white coat pocket and hand reaching for the door. "Oh, by the way," the patient says. What comes next could be as innocuous as a harmless freckle — or a bombshell. Doctors call it "the doorknob phenomenon."

Doctors' rushed schedules and patients' natural reluctance to reveal frightening or embarrassing symptoms make those questions at the doorknob almost inevitable, but medical schools increasingly are teaching students how to avoid such situations.

Dr. Rita Charon, who runs the narrative medicine program at Columbia University's medical school, said the phenomenon might even be one reason that doctors' visits often don't start on time — the previous patient may have had a doorknob question requiring another exam.

Part of Charon's program encourages doctors-in-training to listen and better "read" patients and their greatest concerns.

"You really have no idea of what part of life is going to come up and you really need to signal some desire to hear about it," Charon said.

Charon teaches a method she has adopted with her own new patients, whom she tells: "'I'm going to be your doctor and I need to know a lot about your health and your body and your life' — and then I stop talking."

She doesn't write anything down, or check the computer — she just listens.

"When I did this the first time, the patient started crying, saying 'No one ever let me do this before,'" Charon said.

Nancy Conley, a 48-year-old secretary in Springfield, Mo., says embarrassment led to her own doorknob questions about chronic constipation, along with a belief that nothing could be done for the condition, caused by irritable bowel syndrome.

She sometimes talked herself out of mentioning it at all, trying to downplay it in her mind during the visit "even though I'd go home to my own little hell," she said.

Conley's advice to doctors for avoiding such resistance is to "slow down."

A rushed atmosphere can make patients feel uncomfortable about mentioning bothersome issues. Instead, Conley said, doctors should take a moment to imagine what it's like to be the patient.

"They're scared, they're taking off work probably to be there ... they don't want to be humiliated by putting on those stupid little gowns. If a doctor just stops and says 'Whoa, how would I feel if I were in their shoes right now,'" that could help break the ice, Conley said.

Charon agreed that doctors' hectic schedules often make visits seem too short, which can contribute to last-minute questions.

So can the old-style, doctor-centered approach, she said, citing a medical study published 20 years ago showing that doctors interrupted patients an average of just 18 seconds into a routine office visit.

"Often it happens because doctors, including myself, don't do a good job of getting a sense at the beginning of the medical encounter what the needs are of the patient," said Dr. William Harper, an internist who teaches communication skills to University of Chicago medical students.

Harper tells students that one remedy is simply asking patients: "Anything else?"

"Just asking that simple question, whether it be at the beginning or end of the encounter, can be enough to prevent the doorknob phenomenon," he said.

Margaret Fitzpatrick, a nurse at Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn, Ill., says patients can help, too, by writing down questions to ask the doctor before each visit.

Fitzpatrick and two other nurses wrote a book titled "What to Ask the Doc," designed to help patients take a more active role in their health care and be quick to say what's on their minds.

"People need to be better prepared for the experience of going to the doctor," Fitzpatrick said. "So that if there is this suspicious mole on the neck, take the responsibility of bringing it up ... rather than hoping that the doctor will see it and bring it up with you."


Source: http://news.yahoo.com/news?







Receiving Anger


can help the sender

experience it


without having to act it out.


Clip: http://www.moviepoopshoot.com/





Sun, 27 Mar 2005


Copy Request

May I reproduce the information below on my commercial website -- with full credit and URL link to Ed Seykota and The Trading Tribe?

You may link to my site in such a way that does not imply any kind of endorsement of your site.

Sun, 27 Mar 2005




i am new to this business, as i am now looking on for becoming a trader or i may be wrong also as i have just taken the sub-brokership of one of the main brokers, and i have started making some of the clients.

for them it is me who have to suggest them.
so i heard about this site in the tv program of cnvc tv18

so please give me the needed help


You might start here.



Then proceed to SVO-p



Clip: http://www.get-it-cheap.co.uk/


Sat, 26 Mar 2005

Fundamentals Catch up with George

PARIS, March 24 - A French appeals court on Thursday upheld the conviction of George Soros, the former fund manager, on insider trading charges, rejecting his argument that his investment in a French bank in 1988 was not based on confidential information.


Mr. Soros has been active in American politics, opposing the war in Iraq and spending millions in 2004 opposing the election of President Bush to a second term.





All Information


has to be inside something.



Clip: http://www.nytimes.com/




Sat, 26 Mar 2005

How to Stay Alive

After you left the brokerage firm about 30 years ago and you started managing a few small accounts, what did you do for a living in meantime (while those account grew).

By the way I am 23 and I fell in love with trading 2 years ago.


Trade trends and live below your means.

Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005


Our First Tribe Meeting

Dear Ed,

Last night (Mar. 24th) the [City] Trading Tribe held its first meeting with 2 people in attendance.


We start the meeting by acknowledging and cleaning up some broken agreements to call and e-mail each other during the past several days and to write up what we want to get from our tribe participation and what we see ourselves bringing to the tribe as our contribution to others. We remake our agreements and re-establish our integrity regarding keeping our word.

Next, I brief my fellow member on a 3rd member who will be joining us at our next meeting. We discuss other potential members who are out there.

Next, we do Check-ins with the intent of continuing to get to know each other and finding an issue for each to bring to the hot seat.

My fellow member goes first on the hot seat and his issue involves pressure and anxiety he feels over fulfilling his responsibilities to his family, if something bad should happen to him personally, professionally or financially. He does a great job of getting into his body sensations and Forms. He works hard and completes in about 35 minutes. Toward the end, he reports a nice realization and I jokingly say “I think that’s what they call an AHA”, while we are still officially in the process. We chuckle and I am pleased with our success.

Before the meeting I think I will be great at
receiving, but I find I feel confused about what to do or say as he struggles and I want to help him experience his emotions and Forms. I make some blunders in what I ask him, but no serious damage seems to be done to his experience. He looks up at me several times when I ask him specifics about what he feels in his body (we are not saying the hot seat’s name) and I tell him to “stay down” and with his body and experience and that works better. I see his face is red and ask him if he feels hot and he affirms so I ask him to feel more of that. I get a hunch he is nauseous and ask him, but he says no, so I drop it. I propose a couple of scenarios that I think could trigger his issue (other than the one he starts with) and one does not bother him at all. It is not his issue. Another is after his AHA and he states he is able to handle it or just accept it. We complete and do a check-in and he describes a “tingle” up the front of his body he felt a few minutes before. I remember this is included in the items Ed writes about in Phase Two of the process and tell him. He is feeling capable of handling or just accepting whatever life brings him in regard to his issue tonight. At this point we are both feeling very pleased that we have successfully done the process. I do okay at receiving but realize I still have a lot to learn. Luckily, I have a great teacher – my fellow member who next receives for me like a skilled veteran.

My first hot seat.

I have two or three potential hot seat issues but settle on my fear that I cannot do the hot seat itself. Specifically, I don’t think I can feel emotions in my body at all and have been worrying about this more and more as our first real meeting approaches. As I mentioned above I thought I would be a great receiver from the beginning. I was wrong about that and Fred is about to teach me I am wrong on both counts.

I have forgotten a lot of my hot seat experience but remember that my first body sensation was a stiff and aching neck. My receiver is a natural and is receiving, encouraging and guiding me in ways I remember reading about in FAQ’s but had just had trouble doing for him.


I keep my eyes closed during almost all my hot seat and this helps me stay in my body. With his help my neck stuff fades and now I have a pain in my right shoulder. That fades and now I feel pain in my left rib area. At some point I feel sort of a weird sensation in my heart area and later a jab in my stomach like with a little knife from the inside. Some sensations repeat and some don’t. My receiver pushes me to experience and amplify the somatics and the emotions and thoughts I am having.

I think the thing that triggered the first body
sensation was my belief that I started this tribe, but I can’t even do the process right. I am a f---ing fraud. Receiver gleefully jumps all over that one and soon I am also blurting out that I can’t trade; I can’t write; can’t publish my books; can’t live my life, period.


I am a fraud and a phony. Receiver picks up that I feel humiliation and embarrassment and so he asks for more of that and asks “What if everybody knows you are a fraud?”


I sit with that for just a little while and just start laughing. There is some release as I realize I don’t care who knows my “dark secret”. I hope that it must be almost over. I want a break. I want to cut my profits short and get off the hot seat. Receiver has other ideas. He is very thorough -- lack of thoroughness is one of my problems in life. He has me check and re-check emotions and somatics. Both of us as receivers lead hot seat in body scans but he does a better job or re-checking and testing. It really works for me when he leads me around my body and I ask him a few times to back up and ask me to feel my neck (or whatever) again.

At some point I go into this Form that is very primitive or perhaps fetal. I start squirming and have my upper arms at my sides but my forearms bent up towards my head. My hands are sort of clenched but not into a real fist.


Receiver asks what the emotion is and I do not know what it is or where I am. I am (or it is) struggling and trying to move. But I can’t move or escape or something? I do not feel my body being squeezed as in the birth canal, just limited in movement and in awareness.


Later in check-in I tell Receiver that many years ago my mother told me she was out of it from pain killers at my birth . She had a hard time with the birth and the doctors heavily drugged her. Several people have told me that kind of thing affects a person’s consciousness and awareness and I have never healed it. Maybe this is what this Form is about?


I don’t know but I am very grateful to have experienced such a powerful Form. With help from Receiver, the Form fades, then later returns a couple of times with diminished intensity, as he leads me in re-checks, before fading for good. The final body pains that I remember were all in my mid to lower spine and since I really have some vertebra that are out right now, I think I am about done and am feeling pretty complete.


But again Receiver is very thorough and thinks the process can help me dissolve this pain too. I am willing to keep going. However, at some point I make a joke and raise one finger up in the air and say “I need some professional help over here, I need a chiropractor and some massage therapists”.


At another point I am leaning forward in the chair stretching (yoga-like). And then I start to breath and try to run energy into my back (Quantum Touch). I stop doing these and sit up and tell Receiver what I was doing and say that all I am going to do is the TT process. After we agree that the process is over we do an informal check in and end the meeting feeling very good with our results for a first meeting by two guys who have never done the process before.

I lie in bed last night filled with a wonderful and profound sense of well-being. This morning I awake realizing that the arm position of the “fetal Form” is the same as the arm position that I have been getting into for I know not how long, when I am sleeping. I sometimes lock my elbows and wrists so tightly that I can make my hands and even forearms numb. I will observe if this shifts now and take it back to the hot seat if appropriate.

I look forward to the next Tribe meeting and Hot Seat experience. Thank you, Ed, for creating the Trading Tribe and sharing it.

Nice descriptions.


You might consider taking your desire to work hard, manage it actively and to do it right into the process as entry points.



Lifting and Carrying the Bag

is Hard Work


Celebrating it just where it is

is TTP



Clip: http://www.guatemala-missions.com/





Fri, 25 Mar 2005


Synthetic Charts Fool the Pros

Hello Ed,

An interesting experiment that I tried on some self-described technical charting gurus on a financial site's forum was to provide them with daily HLOC data from a number of different stocks along with a set of HLOC computer generated data. They weren't able to guess which charts were computer generated and which were real better than chance.

It was fun to watch them talk about support levels and breakouts and other indicators when looking at the computer generated charts as if they could predict the future! ;-)

However, they consistently were able to identify real charts that had their timeline reversed (Newest to Oldest) as being bogus. That was a surprise.

Interesting.  I'd like to know more about the reverse-time scale experiment - in particular, what charts you use and how you measure the results.


The chartists might be responding to incidental clues on the charts, like backwards numbers and letters.


If not, the experiment may indicate something deeply non-random about chart patterns.


oil -->





<-- lio





Sometimes Experimenters Neglect


to measure the obvious


Fri, 25 Mar 2005


Counter-Trend Trading

Hi Ed,

When building automated trading systems, do you ever consider counter-trend
trading systems?

Have you built trading systems specifically for the stock market?

Do your successful systems work as well with the stock market as with the
future markets?


Make happiness your number one priority.

 Tony Robbins

Happiness depends upon ourselves.


Men are, that they might have joy. Scripture

Counter-trend systems seem to break down in the area of risk-management.


Interest in counter-trend systems sometimes seems to occur just before big run-ups in the markets.


You can apply trend following to stocks, bonds, futures, FX, real estate, and other investments.


The desire to be happy can interfere with contentment.






Kermit Knows


the best way to make people happy

is to play the banjo


for a little while.



Clip: http://www.harveydanger.com


Fri, 25 Mar 2005


Emotions and Systems


A couple of questions.

1. Is the general trading tribe approach to emotions to experience them all fully - whether we deem them positive or negative? Is the idea to stop fighting our feelings and just let them in the door?

2. As a trader, do you still, after all of these years trading, find your emotions going up and down with your account performance?


3. For most trend traders, this has been a difficult quarter. Do you find that you really have to "work" to keep pulling the trigger on new signals?

4. Did you believe you would be a successful trader even before you ever traded?


5. Do you think you need this kind of confidence to make money?

A couple of answers: yes, yes.


A few more: yes, yes and yes.

Thu, 24 Mar 2005


Intentions = Results


I wish to review my proclamation of December 31, 2003:

I wish to get $20,000 dollars to honor a small commitment and use the rest to fund my trading accounts with risk capital.

I didn't get the $20,000 dollars up to now, and I commit to getting them.

I view myself trading small, although in a very professional-like manner, with adequate and common sense risk management, keeping a smooth rising equity curve;

During 2004 I finished coding my own trend following system. On January 2nd I started running it, in a very professional-like manner, with adequate and common sense risk management. I am also trading small. This year though, I commit myself to trade "enough".

I wish to get a promotion in my job, with improved wages, in my current workplace;

I have just got a promotion in my job, with improved wages. I also have passed an entrance exam for a public job title with a good mark. I don't have the others candidates' results yet, but one position is likely mine. One interesting fact is that both opportunities offer more or less the same wages I expected to earn. This year, I commit myself to double up the figure.

I wish to date a beautiful, loving, caring and family-orientated woman, for a serious, long-term (marriage) commitment.

I don't have it up to now. I commit to do it. I also commit to marry, and "well".

I also wish to proclaim my intention to continue my juridical studies and prepare myself adequately for the entrance exam into the magistracy.

On December 2003 I gathered with some family members to proclaim my intentions, and I feel like doing the same now to proclaim my new ones, in Easter. I also submit these to FAQ as I become increasingly aware of the power of intention and effectiveness of the Hardball Process.

Happy Easter, Ed!







helps communicate intention.



Clip: http://www.callnetuk.com/




Thu, 24 Mar 2005


Science Meets TTP

Hi Ed,

I note a recent  post (Wed, 16 Mar 2005: "Follow Up") that seems to offer scientific support of the techniques you mention in your response to the post.

There is other interesting research that offers support to techniques such as TTP and meditation; some involves monitoring the neurological activity of Tibetan monks during meditation. I think that the scientific research related to TTP, meditation, etc is strewn about among different fields related to neuroscience, psychology, etc.

Some interesting science on the topic of somatic expression is presented in Charles Darwin's "The Expression of Emotion in Man and Animals" which appears in 1872, and Darwin even references some work that predates his.




Charles Darwin (1809-1882)


Early image

of an early receiver.



Clip: http://www.sc.edu/library/


Thu, 24 Mar 2005


Back Testing

Good day. Your site is intriguing.

What is your opinion on the significance of back testing trading systems?

I realize that if you answer, it will be cryptic, but I look forward to it nonetheless.





Back Testing


can help you gain experience

and optimize your methods.


To minimize risk,

obtain permission

prior to administering test.








is a function of context










Thu, 24 Mar 2005


Stock Market Programming

Dear Mr. Seykota,

... I'm somewhat lost in what direction I should continue with my stock market programming work, and I'm hoping that you'll be able to offer some suggestions. I've been looking for school programs in that area, but I haven't found anything spectacular.


Everything I come across seems fake, and I'm positive I don't have the enthusiasm for those. If school isn't an option, I'd be just as happy getting experience working somewhere that, again, doesn't seem fake, but so far I haven't found anything.


The few places I've talked to seemed like sales jobs, and it's not so much that I don't want to be a salesman, as much as it seems like those sales are based on a lie. I mean I don't believe that fundamental analysis has to be wrong, but I'm sure that I would not be able to claim that I can predict the future, and it seems that's what these stockbrokers are doing.

The other thing is that I am running out of time. Eventually, I'm going to have to get a "real" job, I can't be a library bum forever. 


Stock market programming isn't the only thing I'm interested in, but it's on the top of list; it's what I end up working on when I'm supposed to be doing something else. If there's an opportunity to continue working on this stuff, I want to make sure I find it.


You might consider taking your feelings of running out of time to a Tribe meeting.


If you want a project, you might like this one:


Determine, by simulation, the optimal time constants for an exponential moving average crossover system that trades the S&P cash market, going back as far as you have data. 

Buy and sell the morning after you get the signal. Trade one contract, both long and short.  Use frequency (annual compounding return over largest drawdown percent) for your bliss function.


Project: SP-EA


From the Trading Tribe University

course on


Basic Programming Skills


Thu, 24 Mar 2005


TTP Description

Hi Ed,

I am asked to provide
a brief description of Tribe Meetings and TTP, my response follows.

Trading Tribe Meetings and Trading Tribe Process (TTP):

On account of its dependence upon complex forms of non-verbal communication, TTP tends to be best understood best through in-person observation and participation. That said, some of the underlying concepts are comprehensible through a written medium and the best resource for written explanations of TTP are at: www.tradingtribe.com .

Trading is a profession in which self-sabotage is quite easy and, as such, traders are rarely able to achieve and maintain success while carrying around “psychological baggage.”


Psychological baggage, or deeply repressed feelings that one labels as “bad” or “negative,” are typically feelings that one is unwilling to experience and express, on account of these feelings being perceived as “the enemy.” The subconscious tends to find a way to express these feelings in an effort to get the conscious mind to experience the feelings and also to communicate the feelings to others - and this expression need to be consciously voluntary. Sometimes, the desire to repress these feelings is so strong that the subconscious is forced to “replay” the feelings over and over again at higher and higher level of intensity, often building up to a pinnacle at which psychically and physically harmful dramas are acted out. Alternatively stated; “the feelings we are unwilling to feel are the ones that run our lives.”

The essential objective or “purpose” of TTP is to facilitate communication between the conscious and subconscious mind, and build bridges between the two so that conscious-subconscious communication takes place more readily in day to day life. The result of this often involves a release of long-standing repressed feelings and a dissipation of the associated long-standing dramas. So, although TTP has “Trading” in the name, it is not domain specific.

TTP is not a philosophical framework, religion, or psychological/spiritual doctrine. TTP is a set of tools and techniques (a “process”) which facilitate the attainment of the above mentioned objective.

Meetings typically consist of a brief check in followed by each member who chooses to take issues to the tribe spending some time working on the "hot seat." On the hot seat, the “sender” transmits their feelings via somatic expression to the “receivers.” The receivers, in turn, validate the feelings of the sender and encourage the sender to fully experience any and all feelings and forms that come up – especially the ones that the sender likes the least.


The sender’s total immersion in the experience of these feelings typically leads to moments of profound insight in which the sender sees through to the underlying nature of the feelings and associated dramas.


Alternatively stated, the above mentioned objective of communication between the conscious and subconscious mind is met, and the subsequent dissipation of long-standing dramas often takes place.

Nice description.  I notice you don't mention SVO-p as part of the process. 


Your passive [I am asked to provide] does not reveal the identity of the asker.



Thu, 24 Mar 2005


Junk Mail


I've enjoyed and benefited from my read of "Toxic Parents" and I'm enjoying "Trend Following" and have benefited from my new and rather limited tribe experience with TTP.


Most (99%) of the emails I've received from having my name and email address in the directory, however, have been from Africa which, it seems, is full of relatively wealthy people who want to send me vast sums of money if I will only, first, send $50k to them for shipping and handling.


In the interest of my security and sound sleep would you please remove my last name from the directory if it's not too much trouble?

I wonder how you know that your listing in the directory "causes" your junk mail.


I wonder how removing your last name only might "cause" the junk mail to disappear.


Your listing is now absent from the directory.




To Some Spammers


every address is a gimme.



Clip: Source: Spam

Thu, 24 Mar 2005



Dear Ed,

In addition to all the TTP-related experiences I've just told you about,
this week I have been paying particular attention to my other feelings and thoughts.

Reading back one of the old FAQ (9/03), you've suggested someone to put a sign in the office that says "I am in the business of winning, and business is good!!", and see what kind of feelings come about it.

I thought that was pretty neat, and so I try it too. I print out the slogan, and I find myself uncomfortable putting it in an obvious place. I feel if I do that, it's boastful, arrogant, and perhaps even jinxing. So I put it behind my monitor, where I could clearly see it when I'm at my seat, but other people would not be aware of it unless they pay attention. I'm very curious about my act.

Furthermore, I feel uncomfortable saying it OUT LOUD. I repeat it to myself in my mind, and the interesting thing I notice is I tend to say it in a very military-like / discipline manner. It's like I'm reporting forcefully to a supervisor in the military, "I am in the business of winning, and business is good, SIR!" I find it really strange.

Another thing I notice is I get upset when people don't do their part, or if they are denying their responsibility, either by making ambiguous comments so they cannot be pinned down, or say showing up late, or just simply promising to do something but don't deliver.


I think I have an issue here, and perhaps the cold hard truth may be I'm just like them and I hate it? I guess to the extent I accept people who don't take responsibility, they'll keep showing up in my life? Hmmm, sounds like lots of issue to bring to the hot seat.

You might consider putting up a new sign to say it the way it is.




I do not like

to feel



When I feel


I like

to blame it

on others.






telling the truth sets you free.






Thu, 24 Mar 2005


TTP (Part II): Going with the Flow
See: TTP (FAQ: 1/24/05).

Dear Ed,

I was planning to go to the bathroom before leaving my office to TTP. However, as I said good-bye to my coworkers, one of them who had a rough day with the boss wanted to fume out a little. So I gave him my attention for several minutes, and then when he's done, I left the building straight without using the bathroom and rushed to the subway station instead.

It was raining hard, and there was a lot of people waiting at the platform, and I knew something was wrong. I've heard that the local trains have been detoured to the express track, and so no train has been stopping at the station for a while. The subway employee at the booth didn't know what's going on and didn't make any announcement. When the angry passengers pressed for an answer, he just said that there would be a train coming soon.

I ran into a colleague who's been waiting for a while. We waited and no train came, and I was wondering what I should do. Do I still go to TTP, even though I'd be 20 minutes late? Do I go back to the office to do some more work? Do I find a way to go home? Somehow it reminded me of the Breathwork weekend, when my commitment was to arrive at the office by 8 am, and you gave me all kinds of reasons (subway problem, traffic jam, etc.) for me not keeping my commitment.


I have this anger feeling that I've been wanting to take it to TTP, so I choose to go. And heck, even if I can't go as a sender, I still want to receive and support others. The bottom line is, I have a commitment to TTP, and I am not going to let some subway problem as my excuse.

The mob got more and more impatient, and more and more upset. At last the subway employee at the booth gave out coupons for those who couldn't wait any longer, and he finally announced that there would be no train. I was waiting in line to get my coupon and was ready to run to another station when suddenly, a train came!!!


One of my colleagues has just left, and it was like classic capitulation where an investor keeps holding to a losing position, and finally couldn't take it anymore, sold it at the bottom tick and the market exploded in the other direction.

I took that train and ran to our TTP meeting site. I was 20 minutes late and was just in time to be the last person to check in. I told them about the feeling of frustration that I've been experiencing for the last week through various dramas. We split into two groups.

I was ready and I took the hot seat. I thought about going to the bathroom several times before we started, but I want the hot seat so much that I can't wait any, and I didn't go. At about a third of the way into the process of roaring and yelling when I quiet down a little bit for a rest, I decide that I really want to use the bathroom, so I just go with the flow. I stand up and go. As I pee, I see a trash can, and intuitively I decide to bring it back with me, knowing that it'll be very useful. Now looking back, I think it is because of having that trash can that I know I don't need to hold anything back. I spit, I puke, I throw up. I go all the way in feeling frustrations and cry from the bottom of my stomach.

As I look back at the experience, I realize how "going with the flow" really helps. There isn't really much to figure out "to go or not to go," but just "go with the flow," and trusting it is the right thing. If I went to the bathroom at any other time, either before the process (won't be aware of the trash can) or after the process (too late), I wouldn't get the trash can, and I wouldn't be able to go as deep as I did. I would be holding back, worrying if I really puke out I'll make a mess, you know?





If you are willing to get pissed off

once in a while


you don't have to get pissed on

so much.



Clip: http://www.christophniemann.com/




Thu, 24 Mar 2005


Anger / Frustration / Annoyance

Dear Ed,

I had an amazing TTP experience last night.

It began with last week when I was about to get on the hot seat, but someone interrupted with a question and eventually another person showed an even "hotter" issue, and so we had him on the hot seat instead, and it was a great experience. I was very pleased I was able to help him on
that night.

So I didn't address my issue of frustration and irritation remain, and somehow it intensified throughout the week. I got tangled into some dramas where I felt REALLY angry and blood rushing to the head - when I was talking to a phone company rep, then with my boss and colleague, and later on even in an email I sent to a mailing list. I found myself very easily irritated, annoyed, frustrated, angry, upset, etc.

I took it to TTP last night and jumped on the hot seat. I have been feeling agitated all week. I roar and cry out as loud as I can, making facial expressions, clenching my fists, as if to rip someone.


I feel the frustration of very upset yet not knowing what to do or how to express it. I keep yelling out loud despite my throat hurts, and I keep growling, hissing and making all sorts of angry noises. And it grows to a shouting / grumbling words only I can understand - "I've had enough!!! Today it's either you or me! I'm not backing down!" I keep yelling and roaring like that, even though I don't quite know who that "you" are. Perhaps "you" are the feeling (that I do not accept) that has been ruling over my life? Or the feeling that has been making me stop and never stick to things long enough? I don't know.

Tears and mucus. At some point during all these shouting and stuff, I cry out. (This cry is with tears) That feels good. I cry (with tears), then cry (shouting), then cry more (tears), then cry even more (yelling). I am holding a trash can and keep spitting, crying, yelling, growling - as frustrated, angry, upset, irritated as I can ever be. The receivers do a great job in encouraging me to go further, deeper, even more. I ask them to help me combine all the forms together ... I was feeling the pressure, the yelling, the clenching, the tension, the crying, the spitting, the choking altogether. Yeah, I feel like being choked, and I really throw up. And we keep doing this, and I puke several times. I literally "let things out." I cry out loud to the trash can as if to let out every frustration I have in my life, and I choke more, puke more, spit more,
cry more...

At the end of all these, after I let go enough of it, I don't feel the anger any more. Instead, there's a feeling of love, compassionate and acceptance. I don't feel hostile to the rude customer rep from the phone company; I don't feel angry to my boss. In fact, I search for all the people whom I dislike at times in my life. There isn't many, and to all of them I think I can accept them as who they are. I hold no grudge against them anymore. I wish them well. I feel peace.

I'm very pleased with the experience. I find it irony to know that the best receivers are when the sender doesn't even know they exist. The receivers only need to help the sender to get back on track if he's off, and sometimes help push him over the hump to dig even deeper. But mostly, it's great when I don't even hear their words and just into my feelings, fully. I wholeheartedly appreciate their effort.

I do have a question here, sir. It seems like I have a lot of pent-up feelings that I need to let them out, and I literally did by throwing up and spitting out. And after I let them out, I don't feel anger any more but loving and compassionate.


It seems like hatred and love are not the opposites, but they're together.


Once I remove the hatred / anger / frustration, I feel love. But that's not TTP, is it? I expect to find a positive intention for the anger, to embrace it. Instead, I feel like I've just let go of the hatred and releasing all those pent-up feelings, and what remain feels good. So did I do it "wrong?" Is my process "complete?"



When you fully experience anger, you may stop seeing it as a good or bad feeling.


You may see it as just another indicator on your emotional indicator panel.


It just passes through as you get back to the Zero Point.




Expressing Anger


says it all

like nothing else can.



Clip: http://www.previsl.com/





Thu, 24 Mar 2005


Page Not Found error

Hi Ed,

If you try to click "trading guidelines" link (Donchian Materials) on





you get Page Not Found error.

Regards from newbie,

Thank you for the catch.  The page now stands, correctly.

Wed, 23 Mar 2005


Research Work

Hi Ed,

... when you were visiting us, you gave examples of growth of one group of animals and how it gets checked beyond a certain point by another group - I unfortunately do not recall the exact names you gave (didn't have my notebook on me! :-) ). Would appreciate your input.

Thank you for your time.

Coyotes and rabbits can form an oscillating system in which the two populations alternately grow and check each others growth. 


Note: To prevent rabbits from demolishing your crops, build hedge rows for them.  This keeps enough rabbits alive to keep enough coyotes alive to keep the rabbits in check.


I wonder which part of time is your time and which part is my time and what rights my time confers on me.




If it's All in the Now


there is nothing to divide,

no your time and no my time.



Clip: http://reslife.missouri.edu/


Wed, 23 Mar 2005


Checking In

Hi Ed,

I would like to attend the May workshop, and will fire off a check today.

Our Tribe is taking form. We are still two, though the we have lost one and gained one.


This is positive. The first member seemed not to be interested in the process, but used our meetings as a mechanism to draw me into his dramas.


He repeatedly derailed the process despite my constant reminding that we needed to stay on task.


I was hesitant about being more forthright in my insistence that we not continue to veer off course, hoping that eventually he would come around. In hindsight, it was like hanging onto a losing position hoping for it to turn around.


The arrival of the newest member, who is well acquainted with and enthusiastic about the process, flushed out member #1's true intentions, and he soon expressed his desire to longer be involved.

We had our first meeting with the newest member and myself last week, and it was leaps and bounds more significant than anything we had done prior. New member took the hot seat, experiencing six or seven forms, and an AHA.


When asked if he were interested in reintegrating his forms, he appeared too drained from a relatively intense session, so I decided to let it go. It looks like we might be coming out of a congestion phase with the development of our Tribe. We would like more members though.

I am feeling a churning in my stomach right now, as my system has generated a 13.5% DD in the last 5 trading days (albeit off of a new equity high). While this is not outside the realm of possibilities given my testing, it is certainly out on the tail. I am uneasy as three of my positions are right on their initial stop loss, and another one was exited today (on its initial stop loss). My testing shows that positions rarely reach their initial stop loss.

Here is what is significant I think. As my positions continue to work against me, I find I am unable to concentrate on anything. Completing this email is labored. I find myself watching the markets intently, helpless. When my positions are working in my favor, I am much more productive and relatively clear thinking.

When I asked you a question at the last workshop, you derided me for needing certainty.


I try very hard to overcome that need as I know it is unattainable, but I feel like I need it now as a drug addict might need a fix.

I have done a lot of work, yet I know that I have left stones unturned. I fear an Achilles heel. Were I long fear and uncertainty I'd be killing it right now.

If you are drawing in to someone's drama you are not receiving.


If you want to deliver a constant reminder to someone, remind yourself that whatever the sender is doing is already exactly on task.


You might consider taking your feeling of wanting to know what your positions are going to do into the process.




Wanting Certainty


is sometimes a proxy

for fear of commitment.



Clip: http://www.chemistrycoach.com/




Tue, 22 Mar 2005


Notes from a Proof Reader

(on Ed's book)


The book seems to build and build. By the end, I can’t wait to be part of a Tribe. I think you describe Fred and the Conscious Mind very well. There is so much in it that I have to read it a few times to really “grok” it, but I see that it is a template for gaining experiential wisdom.


It is in the middle of the book on to the end where you start giving examples that the process comes together and starts making sense. I have been using the DIM process most of my life like recording affirmations in my own voice and playing them back to myself.


The most powerful DIM growth I had was with three affirmations from “Guide to a Higher Consciousness.”


“I accept myself completely here and now”, “I take full responsibility for everything I experience here and now”, and “I have everything I need to enjoy my here and now”. Playing this over and over in my head for a few months blew me right off the continent over to Kauai where I met my Guru.


Since my Guru has passed in 2001, I am back to DIM. This book has really gotten me excited since this is the first time I can see that progress can be made in a group. I have never been to a psychologist, or catharsis group sharing, even though I have many psychological problems (nothing that seriously effects me or my relationships, just keeps me from being all I can be, enjoying life more, and from relating to others better.) You put into action the statement: “The group helps the individual, and the individual helps the group.”

The SVO-p is great, though it is a little hard on the reader at first. As the reader gets used to it it becomes powerful. As a young person I felt that most of us live in two states: the past feeling guilt or remorse of what we could have done differently, and the future where we are afraid and worry about what will happen to us. Both of these states do not exist and never have. The past never was and the future never will be.


There is only the infinite present and most of us miss it entirely for 80 to 90 years! I have felt this way for 30+ years. My Guru called it the "eternity of the moment". Sorry to babble on here, I look forward to getting into a tribe and learning the process. I have really been a receiver most of my adult life as an excellent teacher, and look forward to being a sender also.


Tue, 22 Mar 2005


Software Copy Cat

Hi Banjo Ed,

I would like ("want" to keep it in SVOP) to know if you have the trading software [Name]? If you do have it, do you want to make an unauthorized copy for me?


I don't think i want to pay USD 2,000 for a software ... Do you know this software? What is your own opinion about it? No Bullshit like "FAQ does not endorse people or products" ,cut this crap ok?


i admire you a lot, and I feel very intimate (many years reading your tutorials) to tell you this. One more question ... What is the reason to endorse turtle trader? ... I know I am very annoying but i am really curious ... i guess i´ll take this as an entry point to my TTP session ok, but answer all these questions in a direct manner.

FAQ does not endorse  people or commercial products, See ground rules.


The site at www.turtletrader.com offers a wealth of information for traders, all for free.


You might consider taking your anger to a Tribe Meeting.



Off to the Pokey

for attempting to steal software


You can act out anger

in various antisocial Ways


or your can take it to a tribe meeting

and find its positive intention.


Clip: http://asylumeclectica.com/


Tue, 22 Mar 2005


Thinking Minds

(inter-tribe message)

Hi ...

I got your address from Ed Seykota's Trading Tribe Site.

I am an Industrial designer by training. Went into Fashion Design and had a collection under my name for many years. Now I am studying trading and trading as well. I have read some books on the subject and a few names keep popping up over and over.


Ed Seykota is one of the names that keep coming up again and again. I am very fascinated by this profession now and would like to meet and talk to other traders who are passionate about this profession too.

My secret wish is to meet and be in the company of Ed Seykota's mind and energy some day in person. Besides trading I am fascinated by his thoughts and work on Radial Momentum. He truly is a thinking machine, and I like that. What has been your experience with Ed? I would like to know.

I would be thankful to you if you could send me some information about your group in [City] too.

Thanks in advance and hope to hear from you soon.

The writer can meet me at the Workshop


Alternatively, if he wants to do some thinking with me, he can come out to Lake Tahoe and help me with some puzzles.


1.  You can use Maxwell's equations to derive the speed of light from e0 and m0.  I want to know how to derive m0 in the lab.


2.  I would like to see a set of two differential equations that you can solve for the frequency of light.




James Maxwell (1831-1879)


We can scarcely avoid the conclusion that light consists in the transverse undulations of the same medium which is the cause of electric and magnetic phenomena.


Clip: http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/


Mon, 21 Mar 2005


Richard Dennis Interview

Dear Sir,

I just read Richard Dennis' interview in the current issue of "Technical Analysis of Stocks & Commodities." I find some of his quotes very curious and interesting, and wonder whether you hold similar opinion as he does:

"Think about what we had 20 or 25 years ago. The paradigm was that unknown information seeped into the market and gradually moved price. You go to a currency market, and there's the same fundamental forces but you also have this tremendous flow of inside information. It isn't unknown inside information, but it's bureaucratic. It's bureaucrats at the Bundesbank telling the hedge fund guys what they're going to do. Now as a trend starts, it explodes immediately so that the trend-followers can't get in until it's over. It isn't slow. It isn't indirect. It's all at once."

"System followers see a signal in financials that they think is the same as a soybean signal, but it's not. The structure of the trend changes."

"Nine out of ten things that worked 20 years ago don't work now. In the last year, only a subset of those breakouts worked relative to the 20 to 40 ranges that worked previously."

"Fundamentals seep into price series. There's a corrupting element to trends when markets get overwhelmed by government action, or officials leaking information. That's when the patterns get muddied. If you look backward in time, the patterns tend to suggest more of a pure trend-following. This other kind of price movement is based more on short-term information known to a few trader groups. It makes a big difference in the price series. It distorts the natural formation of trends."

"This is probably the year of the fundamentals. I turn on TV and see T. Boone Pickens grinning every time crude's up five bucks. Fundamentalists would say crude is bullish whether it's at a 10-week high or low. They're more likely than the trend guys to want to buy at a 10-week low, which means if they're right, the trend guys are out of luck."

Thank you for the website and gracious sharing.


When an incontrovertible long-term trend follower like Mr. Turtle himself finally turns into a short-term fundamentalist, it might indicate the markets are about to trend big time.




Richard Dennis


I don't think trading strategies are as vulnerable to not working if people know about them, as most traders believe.


If what you are doing is right, it will work even if people have a general idea about it.


 I always say you could publish rules in a newspaper and no one would follow them. The key is consistency and discipline.


-- Richard Dennis


Clip: www.turtletrader.com/ trader-dennis.html

Mon, 21 Mar 2005


Hear Ye

Hi Ed,

I wondered if you had any experience of deafness and its effect.


People tend to hear what they want to hear.



Economical Hearing Aids.


Tie a string to a button. 

Put the button in your ear. 

Put the string in your shirt pocket. 

Notice people standing closer

and talking more distinctly.


Clip: http://www.rosescandles.com/


Sun, 20 Mar 2005


Feelings Under Control

Hello Ed,

I decided to take a break from trading for a two year period and decided the study the psychology aspect of the market.


I in essence, became a little more religious. This was a good thing. I have belief in a one divinity. Nonetheless, my studies still continue. I have since understood that anger leads to depression.

A human must use his or her intellect to make decisions. I have found that many market participants use their emotions, much to their demise.

The greatest difficulty we face is to make decisions with our intellect and the discipline required to disable the emotions function.

[Since 2000 I began trading a trend-following system] which enabled my at the outset to restructure the mind, to stick with trends and cut losses quickly. I do believe that trading is a teachable science, however, preparation to discipline the mindset is quintessential. Accepting the new trading mentality and thought processing is crucial if anyone wishes to succeed.

Now I maintain this course: the trend follower and ignoring all of the sizzle. Some people ask me what I think about ABC and I reply: I have no clue if a CEO exists or not.

I remember you said the same thing when you visited Toronto (I think it was 96')

The head trader at one of the largest funds asked you where you thought Gold would be trading at in the future. Your answer was, "I don't know."

they were all expecting some target price etc ... but well it's true we can not predict the a future event, otherwise we wouldn't need to trade.

I find it simply remarkable yet humbling as to how I have been able to stay on course.


The participants really haven't changed, and I often ponder why essence transcends intellect.

You might consider this framing of your statements:



Anger in a k-not leads to depression.



Traders get in trouble by not using their emotions as allies.



Disabling the emotional function and trying to make decisions intellectually leads to drama.



The question, "Why?"  is fundamentally unanswerable.


One way you can test this framing is to see if you can figure out the feeling of wanting to figure out the same feeling.


Another is to try to figure out the positive intention for all the feelings you dislike.




People have a Conscious Mind

and Fred


Fred wants

to communicate feelings to CM

so CM can experience them

and gain experience

and share it with Fred

so Fred can learn how to react.


This is how we manufacture wisdom.


When we don't like our feelings

we tie them in k-nots

and do not experience them.


This interrupts

the wisdom manufacture process,

and draws drama into our lives.


Clip: http://www.parentcoachcards.com/


Sun, 20 Mar 2005


Wants Guide


How do i become a member pl guide me

Thanks & Regards

c prvs nswr - wht izit wif-u gyz ?

Sun, 20 Mar 2005


Wants to get into the Family


I hv come to know abt the said trading tribe. I am an active new trader. How to get in to the family of yr TT. Pl email -



u cn gt n by rdng ths wbst

Sun, 20 Mar 2005


Many are Called and Few are Chosen

Dear Ed,

While reading the old FAQ (9/03), one of the posts quotes your Market Wizards interview, "Many are called and few are chosen," which is your answer when Schwager asked, "Why do so many traders fail in the marketplace."

May I ask you, so who's doing the calling, and who's doing the choosing?


You choose your own calling.




Suuueeeee !


This hog caller's calling

is to call hogs

that may or may not

choose to answer the call.


Clip: http://fivecountyfair.org/archives/


Sat, 19 Mar 2005


MIT Measures Emotions of Investing


Hi Ed !

Is MIT getting ready to hear about TTP ?


Here is an excerpt from recent LA Times article:

Researchers led by Lo at MIT studied working traders during their normal business day.

He wired 10 currency speculators at a Boston brokerage to sensors monitoring heart rate, breathing, blood pressure, body temperature and skin conductivity.


By the end of the day, the traders had made 1,200 split-second trades, averaging $3 million to $5 million apiece.

His team plotted the biological indicators of stress, exuberance and tension against real-time profit and loss. He repeated the experiment at the Boston Stock Exchange.

Market trades, the sensors showed, were the stuff of sweaty palms, heavy breathing and pounding pulses. Snap judgments, honed by intuition, outweighed high-minded economic calculations.

These were "gut" decisions.

Contrary to traditional economics — which considers only rational deliberation — such measures of market panic and exultation begin to document how involuntary emotions affect the rise and fall of stocks.

Already, preliminary findings about the balance sheet of the brain have scholars rethinking the meaning of money itself.

The same reward circuitry activated by cocaine, sports cars, attractive faces and jokes is activated by money. Until now, economists have assumed that money was prized not for itself but only for what it could buy.

Moreover, the prospect of winning money activates specific brain regions in a way that the threat of losing it does not, researchers at Stanford University recently demonstrated.

Scientists are not sure how the electrical snap of synapses adds up to a financial decision, or how these insights might be assembled into a working theory of economic behavior.

"Sooner or later, you have to engage the issue of free will," said Glimcher, the New York University scientist. "When we finally understand the human brain, all human behavior will be predictable."

The elite MIT research team evidently tries everything but the obvious - namely, to open an account and see what it's feels like to trade.  



Method of Attaching Electrodes


to MIT alumnus

who goes ballistic

when he learns how MIT

is wasting his $1,550,000 gift




Method of Attaching Electrodes


to UNR (Reno) grad student

who only charges $50.00

per inconclusive test.










Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005


Wants the Basics



i am new to equity trade

would be grate full what r the basics one shd follow to be a prudent investor

what r terms lik P/E., E P S,

what r the factors which determines a share,s value


 rd ths wbst ... u mt lrn 2 spl 2





Clip: http://www.mailorderexpress.com/


Thu, 17 Mar 2005


Testimonial for Book 

Dear Chief,

Before my TTP experiences, it was "I think, therefore I am." Now, it is: "I feel, therefore I live." Thanks so much for your friendship and wise counsel.

Tribally yours,