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Mar 10, 2015

Process Manager Flow Diagram

Dear Ed,

Please find the TTP Manager Guide attached. In its current form it is only the structure of process as I observe you doing it - most of the time. Once we clarify it I would like to continue and expand each section with an essential description of each process.

Thank you.





Thank you for helping to document the work and for helping others grasp the sequence of steps in the Rocks Process.

We can try out this template at the next Tribe meeting to see how it works - and then, perhaps, modify it a bit and then publish it to this site.
Mar 10, 2015

Tribe Report - Learning to Give Useful Feedback


At our last Tribe meeting a fellow Tribe member deals with an issue of making a lot of money in the markets, then giving it back. He knows his method and can successfully generate positive returns over a period of time only to turn around and use a different method and give it all back in short order. Fellow Tribe members also locate similar patterns in his relationships. He would slowly build up a relationship only to end it, often times rather quickly.

I can relate to this pattern, especially when it comes to money.

During some parts of the process, when Tribe relentlessly probes the hot seat and his willingness to work, I experience discomfort. I want it to be over with. I notice I am uncomfortable with the deep probing the Tribe is doing. However, at the end I feel the result of the deep probing is a clear picture of the hot seats intentions, rock donors and behavioral patterns controlling the hot seats life.

The whole Tribe is involved in the Rock Process and we really get into it. I observe hot seat's face and notice the pronounced impact the process has on him at the end. This is all real stuff.

I notice in my life I often avoid confrontation and probing. I often don't directly say what I want to say so I do not to hurt others feelings or look stupid. I want to be polite.

This is radically changed after the meeting. Although intellectually for a very long time I already know that giving feedback is essential to intimacy and growth, I finally get it instinctively and subconsciously.

The next day during the Trading Lab reporting I am giving my most honest feedback yet where before I worry about the other person's feelings and his view of me when I deliver the criticism. Now I feel very normal giving feedback. The underlying feeling used to be; "Please don't hate me for critiquing your work." to "Aren't you happy you have that information now? You can now grow and be stronger. You're welcome!"

Thank you for sharing your process.
Mar 10, 2015

Data and Govopoly

Hi Mr. Seykota,

I feel like I know you. You remind me of several of the MIT guys I used to work with at O'Connor & Associates. OCA was a preminent option trading house founded by Clay Struve who studied under Fischer Black at MIT. It was a happening place and the creme de la creme of the organization were a handful of MIT grads who's primary characteristic, other than intelligence, was their nice-guy confident demeanor. When I listen you on YouTube I can hear any one of these former workmates in your voice.

I am an old floor broker, futures trader, options trader who was plugging along nicely for many years as a broker and trader on the CBOT and CME. I began as a runner for Merrill Lynch in the old CBOT grain room in the stone age, 1976. I ended my floor days as the head of an entrepreneurial brokerage group with 20 producers, while trading, plunging with good success, on the side.
Then the tsunami hit. Electronics (which I saw a long way off), the '08 debacle, decimalization, the advance of the regulatory state, etc. Since then I have traded my PA with less success than I used to enjoy. I am a singles hitter, the antithesis of a trend trader. But I have been reading a lot about the various trend traders and the logic fascinates me. Once upon a time I even filled orders for Rich Dennis, back in my soy bean option days, but never met the man.

Back in the brokerage days, I could afford to be a somewhat sloppy trader. If I got spanked, my psyche remained unfazed, because some large customer would come along and have me fill a few thousand spreads, and the way I rationalized things, I was back to even. Plus I had my ear plugged into the customers (amazing what you can hear in the background of a large trade desk) and I was a keen oberver of customer order flow. Watching big orders bounce from Goldman to Solomn to Morgan Stanley to Merrill was insight unparrallelled. In short, it was a turkey shoot. Don't misunderstand me, I NEVER once violated ANY rule or ethical standard, was never involved in any arbitrations and I remain, at 55 years, without any compliance issues EVER. And I am proud of this fact.

So in 2005 my real trading education began.
My money.
Zero edge.
Humility became the coin of my realm.
Haha. BooHoo.

That's me.

My question, which you have probably heard a thousand times is this: Can I use old commodity data (1985-2002) to backtest trend strategies. According to comments I read in one of Covel's books, attributed to you, the markets are essentially unchanged from period to period. Obviously this isn't altogether true, as other comments attributed to you point out that trending markets come and go and only the skillful trend trader can survive in non-trending markets. You likely already know that old data is free. Whereas CME/CBOT wants about $50K for 1980's to present.

I am confident the answer to my question is YES, old data is ok. But I am not confident enough to proceed without a nod, or at some insight. If this question violates the TT rules, please accept my apology. It seemed to me that if I proposed the Q in a somewhat benign fashion, you wouldn't view it as a "why" question.

Thank you.

P.S. Do you care to give your opinion of a few good trend books?

PSS. I am curious why "Govopoly" costs $125. I speculate that you are giving the money to a favorite cause. But I nevertheless find it curious, because the ideas you espouse in the book ough to be in the minds of every citizen of this country. Give it away and maybe nobody would be interested? Creates a bit of a buzz? I am sure you have good reasons. Please share them, if you don't mind.

I am proud to say, that I (less systematically than you) arrived at a similar conclusion regarding the incredible government beast and it's capacity to subsume the free market economy our forebears once enjoyed.

Thank you for raising these issues.

Your trading system has a numerical component, such as your formulas and methods. If you have a fairly standard system, this might account for some of your success.

Your trading system also has a psychological component, such as if you follow all your signals. If you have a fairly standard psyche, this might account for a lot of your success.

You might consider taking your feelings about <data accuracy> to Tribe.

If you'd like to get the essence of Govopoly without buying the book, you can see the video at:

Mar 9, 2015

Cold Wet Wall

Hi Chief,

Last Friday I work on the feeling of stuck on all projects on my job. I feel out of rope and not to know what to do. When I am in the trance on the hot seat, I see indistinctly an old, slimy wet, hard, metallic, bumpy wall in front of me. I feel I am in a cave and darkness around, and silence. But not strong feelings. It's like I am in a separate word. Then later I recall when I am young I try to cook noodle and make a mistake. My father ridicules me. I also recall a mistake I make in the physics class.

I then try to feel more the cold wet wall and go nowhere then I role play the father and class situation. I am curious about the cold hard wall memory. I have similar flash memory last year when working on my stuck feeling on another project. I see myself in a cave too. like an animal.

So I generally have two kinds of materials in my trance on hot seats. One is the primitive, weird, not much feeling involved being in a cave or darkness like an animal, sometimes see myself with fur or as a reptile, the other kind is childhood dramas with vivid feelings. I wonder what you opinion is about this, and from your practice what situations such dull fragment of material usually leads to? I might try it more next time.


Thank you for sharing your process.

You might consider taking your feeling about <the cold wet wall> to Tribe.

Mar 9, 2015

World-Class Wine

Hi Ed,

Thank you for your returned gift.

I go on a camping holiday with my family and friends. We share your well travelled, returned, bottle of Mad Fish wine. We think of you and I explain the story of the wine and we talk of briefly of your book Govopoly.

The wine tasted warm and smooth. That is probably the extend of my tasting vocabulary. I did very much enjoy tasting it on your behalf.

I thank you, send you smiles and best wishes.

Warm regards


Thank you for sending me the photo of the wine.

As I recall, the post office here in Puerto Rico refuses to accept it - and returns it to you in Australia - so now I finally get to see what it looks like after its World Tour.

Thank you for tasting it for me and reporting on the bouquet.
Mar 9, 2015



I deeply appreciate the intensity and emotional content the feedback you gave me last week. I recognize what it means to me, the value and the intension of what you share. I also greatly appreciate the practical feedback and acknowledgement regarding parts of the work you recognize as valuable and important.

Tribe and Lab work are changing my life in a way that is good for me and the people that I love. I think it is likely that the impact of the work may extend beyond my immediate family, Tribe and circle of friends.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process and for acknowledging the work.
Mar 8, 2015

From Control to Intimacy

Hi Ed,

It is very difficult to admit that I failed miserably as a trader.

On the bright side, my relationship (that I mentioned developing about a year ago, Mar 31, 2014 Workshop Follow-Up: From Control-Centric to Intimacy-Centric Relating) is still going well without arguments! Currently I am looking at jobs in engineering and some opportunities have appeared through relationships that I formed with people.

Also, once I overcame my fear of being rejected by people I began to craft relationships with them. I listen to people, I acknowledge their feelings and I do my best to help them and to encourage them. Some examples are:

- I acknowledge my girlfriend's fear of flying and I reassure her that everything will be alright the next time she flies with the plane in a few days

-I am supporting very much a friend of mine that is going through a bad divorce

-I encourage another friend to be optimistic after his own divorce and that he will be alright

I guess that more-or-less nobody in my family was interested in my feelings, so I did not learn how to be interested in other people's feelings too. I feel so much better now that I made this transition -gradually- after the workshop. Also I gave up alcohol, but I also feel that I am the greatest failure that ever existed in history.

For me it wasn't so much the technical skills the reason that I failed. I can write code, I can program systems and I can understand the mathematics of trading. It was my emotional shortcomings that failed me. I was afraid to loose, I could not hold on to positions and it took me (once I opened my trading account) two years and one workshop until I was able to hold a position open for a whole week (including the weekend)! This was the most profitable trade I ever made by the way.

Thank you for everything.

Thank you for sharing your process.

Mar 7, 2015

Hates Buying Highs

Hi Sir

i am 19 years old and switching from one strategy to other can u give some clues as to which analysis method will suit me i am a person who likes to be in control of things & i hate the fact to buy things when they are going higher just in anticipation that they would go even higher kind of a reversal trader i am any help will be appreciated if u could recommend a good mentor or your all time favorite Books will be great :)

Thank you for sharing your process.

You might consider taking your feelings about <buying on highs> to Tribe.

Mar 7, 2015

Tribe Report - Controlling Not Controlling

Hi Ed,

Before the meeting I was engaged in a lot of drama. The prospect that a new member would join our tribe had me stirred up - I felt threatened -I felt like the level of trust I had with my Tribe would be impacted. As the meeting approached I reflected on these feelings.

I also reflected on the previous meeting - I thought that I had it all wired:

I know how this works now – I've been through the Rocks Process, I've seen someone else go through the process and role-played. I've definitely got this TTP stuff down. My plan to observe and let the other members get on the hot seat is going well - until the last check out of another member's process on the last day when we are already over time. Fred says, "Hey don't forget about me", and here it comes. Chief says "this is a real feeling" and can see me blocking it - and I do, I scramble for some water and squash the feeling flat. Close call.

So after thinking about the drama leading up to the meeting and my blocked entry in the previous meet up I decide that a change in course is needed. I decide that I'm not going to have the fear of people finding out about me stop my process. I decide that I will be an open book – that will fix it. I also plan to carefully not plan my process – if I just plan on going with the flow and letting my feelings come up during process I'm sure I'll get to a particular feeling that I've decided I'd like to work on.

The meeting arrives and I take pole position. Drumming – done. Check in – and I launch straight into my diatribe. Chief reminds me that it isn't quite time for that yet. Oh right – pain in neck, pain in whatever else - let's move on. Street news, Chief looks at me – he knows about all the drama - OK now you can go. And seriously – I've got nothing. Nothing-what-so-ever – f--k. We proceed, another member gets into it and I support process.

Later I get another chance and I decide that I'm going to access this feeling if it kills me. It goes sideways pretty quick – and I end the process before it turns codependent. The next morning I realize that I was actually having a real feeling but kept dismissing it as trivial because it wasn't what I was going for.

At first I feel regret for wasted opportunities - but this feeling is dissipating as I write this. I see that it's just part of my process.


Controlling my process doesn't work.

Controlling not controlling my process doesn't work.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process.

Mar 7, 2015

Economic Machine


On the topic of Govopoy, here is a link to the video from Ray Dalio, How the economic machine works:

How The Economic Machine Works by Ray Dalio

Also, some of his business principles:

Thank you for sharing the links with me.
Mar 7, 2015

New Tribe - New Delhi, India

Dear Sir,

I am keen to start a Trading tribe in India with the objective stated below :

Learn and practice TTP in all its forms

Apply TTP in our own lives

Grow personally and professionally
Support others to do the same

Please initiate me into the forum so that I can build a tribe and practice TTP and Rock in my city and help others or give freely what I have received. I have attached the registration form for your perusal.

Best regards,

Thank you for registering your Tribe.

You can find your listing on the directory page.

Mar 6, 2015

Medicating Moodiness


You might like to see this article about how women medicate their moodiness with drugs:


Thank you for sending me the link.
Mar 6, 2015

DIM Rocks Process


I want to share an experience I have recently that I would describe as a DIM partial Rocks process.

As I stand in the shower, I imagine working in Tribe and expressing a form. I just create one in my head and it includes shaking my hands back and forth near my ears.

I imagine intensifying the form and the next thing I know I begin (in my imagination) banging my fists hard against my head.

I think, "Go ahead and beat me up, I'll just take it". Suddenly I remember sitting in my living room as a child, listening to my mother berate my father in the next room. He says nothing. He never did.

I suddenly understand my history of tolerating abuse in relationships (even actually being hit in the head) and continuing to try to make the abuser happy.

The rock was donated by my father; I knew the dynamics of my parents' relationship but never realized the rock I had received.

I know that working this out with role-play in Tribe may be necessary to fully integrate and change this pattern. But prior to this event I have already begun to stand up for myself more in important relationships, and this may be allowing a greater awareness of the old pattern to emerge.

I know DIM may not be sufficient, but I am struck by the depth of this insight and how it emerged out of nowhere simply by visualizing a form. The fantasy was entirely novel and not something I had pictured or thought about before.

I want to share it with you as a possible permutation of the Rocks process that might prime me for a future hotseat.


Thank you for sharing your process and for reporting on a variation of the Rocks Process.
Mar 5, 2015

Extending the Possible


Some are just fun, many are insane, but all are fantastic.

These are spectacular

Insanity takes many forms

Thank you for sending me the clip.

You might also like this one, showing what the ladies can do:

March 5, 2015

Sad and Without Energy

Dear Ed,


I feel sad and without energy. It feels hard to even do basic stuff. I can see that my journey moves me along the road of my dreams, bringing me ever closer to my goals. I expect my happiness and fulfillment to move up correspondingly, but it doesn't. I still feel I'm a million miles away from success. I feel tired and dejected.

Thank you for your support.

Your loving student.

Thank you for sharing your process.

You might consider taking your feelings to Tribe.
Mar 5, 2015

Charts Showing Exponential Growth


I find these charts interesting in the context of the 39th Day:


Thank you for sending me the link.

Many of these charts have to do with the growth of population and of technology.

In Govopoly in the 39th Day, I also deal with the growth of the Govopoly (monopoly by government sanction) System.
Mar 4, 2015

Sedona Method

Dear Ed,

Hope all is well. I want to share with you a technique for letting go of emotions that I have found very helpful. It's called the Sedona Method and consists of four simple questions that one asks oneself. They are:

1. Can I welcome this feeling?

2. Can I let go of this feeling?

3. Am I willing to let go of this feeling?

4. When can I let go of it?

I find this technique to be utterly amazing. In a few weeks, I have dropped emotions that have troubled me for a very long time. I usually experience a lot of fear and sadness related to my trading and this technique helps me remain calm, objective, and intuitive.

I thought you may find this technique useful for yourself and the Tribe. I have attached a primer on the Sedona Method. There is also a book on Amazon, but since it is such a simple technique, the book is mostly superfluous.

Hope you find this helpful.

All the best,

Thank you for sharing your process.

In TTP, we do not try to "let go" of feelings in order to feel better.

We frame our feelings as having positive intentions and aim to bring them to the surface so we can learn what they have to teach us.

Once they have their say, they generally disappear until the next time they have something to share with us.

I'd like to hear how Sedona works out for you, say, in a few months.

Mar 4, 2015

New Tribe - Hertford, UK

Dear Ed,

A am attaching the New Tribe registration form.

Also, I am beginning to organise the third session of our new tribe.

I hope this finds you very well!

Warm regards,
Thank you for registering your Tribe.

You may find a reference to it on the Tribe Directory page.
Mar 3, 2015

Tribe Report


I think of you a lot these last few weeks.

Yesterday, I'm on my way to pick up my daughter from school, I recall the issues you raise regarding your role as man of the house ...

I feel a far away sad feeling with a layer of "potential solution" and resignation coating the sad feeling as I receive what you say.

I immediately feel a connection to this and feel like he is in jail or rehab and then feel a sense of guilt for having the thought and for what my dad probably felt when I was a teen.

I feel presumptuous and briefly embarrassed and decide not to ask any questions.

It feels familiar. I think about my dad and missing him as a kid. A memory of a feeling of lonely and not good enough come up. I feel it and it dissipates.

I'm almost at the school and I'm early.

I decide to call my dad to see how he is doing. He answers.

When I speak to him and he asks how I'm doing with business, instead of bluffing and painting a rosy picture about work I tell him the truth. I tell him that I feel down, spread thin and impatient. He accepts this from me. No lecture. Not even a hint of disappointment.

Our relationship post workshop rocks process has been stress free and honest. We end the call, I feel connected with him.

I notice I'm thinking of you again, wondering how you are feeling.

I feel like I may be able to support your process and want to offer you my support.

Last night I dream that I am apprehended as though I have shoplifted when in fact I have purchased the item. I have feelings of being caught, having stolen etc even though I have not. The security guard won't look at the receipt and I'm taken to a room where a friendly woman in her fifties is willing to look and we joke around. I leave without my merchandise and only realize it after I have exited. I return to collect it then wake up.

I notice similar feelings accompany my worst periods of trading. Feelings of not getting away with it or getting caught.

I think about when I feel these feelings in the past. I associate them with despair. I recall my teen age years of doing drugs, prolonged periods of LSD and ephedrine use, drinking, sleeping around, stealing, committing high risk trade in guns and drugs, dangerous thrill seeking and longing for acceptance and the feeling of being alive.

I'm surprised that as I recall all of this I feel OK. I don't feel the shame or anxiety that used to accompany these memories. I even feel a bit empowered to make the most of seeming the difference between then and now.

I am also surprised to think of you Chief and wonder if some of my experience resonates with you on some level as a father.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process - and for creating an intimacy-centric relationship with your father.

Mar 2, 2015

Father Stuff

Hi Ed,

I get this heart dropping feeling and then steady pressure on my chest when I communicate / read an e-mail from my gf.

Before this happens, I have a moment with my dad when I feel accepted and I cry in the bathroom and proceed to have a light hearted feeling. Then Ithink of the wrongs Ive done to my gf that stems from my previous inability to accept sadness about my dad not being there. I write her an email saying that I love her and she emails me back.

Writing this email helps alleviate this pressure a bit but its still there.

I also mean to write about the no more mr nice guy book that I recommended. After My feeling of acceptance and getting noticed by my father I have a different feeling about the book. I dont really know that it helps me. It just seems like it when i initially read it. Although it may have to do with me reading it late at night on a single read thru with dopamine. After i finish the book i feel <abandoned>. I still practice noticing what bodily feelings correlate with what emotions.

Thanks for reading and being a positive resource for me,

Thank you for sharing your process.

You might consider taking your feelings about <your father> and <your girlfriend> to Tribe.
Mar 1, 2015

Evening With Ed in Seattle


You may be interested in the following post:

An Evening With Ed Seykota

Thank you for sharing the link with me.
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