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July 31, 2018

Math and Millions

Ed, do you have to be a math genius like you to make millions trading?

Thanks for your answer

Thank you for raising this issue.

Mathematics, while certainly important in trading, might not suffice without other character properties such as persistence, fidelity, resiliency and ability to focus.

I do not consider myself a math genius.  I find math rather confusing and sometimes have to think about things for years until they become simple enough for me to understand.

I find that mathematicians, scientists and other stripe of explorers seem to embrace their feelings of confusion that accompany working on puzzles.

You might consider taking you feelings about <math> to Tribe as an entry point.

July 21, 2018

Tribe Meeting Report

Dear Sir,

With 4 members in attendance, we begin the meeting with drumming in & proceed to check in.

Check In

TM1: He attends a meeting after a long time. He shares that he is happy at his salary increment & the ratings given to him by his boss. Though his increment was higher, he expected more as his base is smaller.

TM2: He too attends a meeting after a long time. He is happy that work is good & AUM is increasing & his strategy is doing well; after a rocky phase.

TM3: He shares that since the previous meeting, he has shut down the account where he used to take the additional trades he mentioned in the previous meeting. He also shares that he has begun an exercise regimen. He is happy & I too feel a sense of pride & happiness in his progress; and feel like a stakeholder in his growth.

TM4(I) : I share how I feel anxious & ambivalent in relationships. I also share how I want everything to be perfect in the first go & without modifications. I share how I completely delete a trading idea or files and code & feel agitated & frustrated when I do not get something right the first time. With the frustration I eventually put the project in cold storage for some time.

Hotseat 1

TM 2 is takes the role of the Process Manager while I elect to take the Hotseat.

Hotseat : I share how I get anxious in my relationships & quickly get into my forms, like rubbing my hands on my thighs, tightening and loosening my hip & thumping my feet. I recall an incident from when I am 6 or 7 years old. I had smashed my head into a wall & required surgery. I recall feeling shame & guilt at costing my parents so much money with the surgery as we were facing financial difficulties.  I am unable to fully let go on the hotseat & try to manage my process at some points. At one point I am unable to further & the hotseat ends.

HS Checkout : TM1 shares that though I was committed, I did not go as deep into the hotseat as I did. TM3 also shares that commitment was present but he feels there is more work remaining to be done. PM shares that TM3's sentiment. I share that at some point in the process I try to manage myself & a voice in my head keeps telling me to do it later.

Hotseat 2

TM1 takes the Hotseat with TM4(I) as manager.

Hotseat : He shares how he feels dull & questions himself "what is the point?". He gets into a form of curling his toes & tapping his feet. He rubs his hands & various other forms. He gets deeply into his forms. I freeze him multiple times & test for willingness. At one point he mentions he feels a wooden plank in his lower right leg which is blocking him. TM3 asks if he can throw the plank away. Hotseat again develops forms. As I freeze him, he mentions feeling a small fire. We continue to encourage him to feel his forms fully. At one point he looks calm & relaxed & elects to end the process. We do the reintegration process & HS goes into deep into his forms, becoming very hot. At a peak I freeze him again & we end the process.

HS Checkout : TM2 shares that HS is committed to the process. TM3 shares that HS is very committed & that he (TM3) is happy that HS elected to go ahead ahead during one time in the process when HS appears unsure but goes aheads & commits. I share that I feel that something has shifted in HS. HS thanks us for the validation. He shares that towards the end, he feels waves of energy flowing through his body.

Hotseat 3

TM 2 takes the HS with TM3 as Process Manager.

Hotseat: HS quickly gets into his forms, from rubbing his arms and squinting his face. He starts to laugh & then cries. He feels something on his upper left back and then rubs his left hand. This is a new form for him. PM freezes him & HS shares that he has been ignoring his health. HS elects to end the process. We do the reintegration process & the HS ends.

HS Checkout: I feel that HS has some more sadness which could be used as an entry point later. PM encourages HS to work on his (HS) health. I notice that HS has puffy eyes & looks like he is about to cry.

Meeting Checkout
Note: I am writing in the order in which we check out.

TM1 shares that he is happy to be back & glad to share with the tribe after a long time.

TM3 shares that this is one of the best & most intense meetings. He is happy at his progress & following his system.

I(TM4) share that I was ambivalent on meeting day, as 2 of the founding members were not available. I also share that I move between I know everything & that I do not know anything & that I feel any praise I get is sarcasm.

TM2 shares that he too felt ambivalent on meeting day because the founding members were not present, but he is glad that we went through the meeting anyway. He feels that this meeting is fruitful.


Thank you for sharing you process and for documenting your meeting.

You might have TTP working in a "medicinal" way.  For example, you meet and help each other let off some steam. Then you stop the process and go home feeling better.  In this way you avoid having to deal with the underlying issues.  At the next meeting, you show up with toughly the same "signature forms."

The Rocks Process helps you identify and locate deep patterns - and it also helps you formulate and practice new pro-active response patterns.

You might consider studying and applying the Rocks Process.
July 20, 2018

Doesn't Like Some Feelings

Hi Ed,

I wonder what your thoughts are about altering thinking patterns as a way to avoid feelings that one does not like.

For example, I find that I compare myself to others who I work with alot. I have a habit of imagining that they must be doing better then me or worry that they will do better in the future, this then leads to fears that I will fall behind. When I think this way I get feelings that I do not like.

Logically, I can see that thinking in such a manner provides no benefit to me. I cannot control what they do. When I think and feel like this my decision making is affected, my performance suffers and I just feel plain unhappy.

I actually started recording this thinking pattern while I was at work and noticed it's prevalent almost every day. Since I have been recording it I notice that the feelings associated with it appear with less regularity.

When the feelings that I do not like occur, I do not try to block them out.

I have read many books, listened to many a 'self help guru' on social media, who claim that the mind is made up of neural networks that can be re trained like a muscle - essentially change the way you think - which leads to changing the way you feel. I wonder if you have ever tried this and what your thoughts are ?

Thank you for raising this issue.

In TTP we hold that all feelings have positive intentions and we learn how to embrace our feelings and how to extract valuable information from them.

For example you might not like the feeling of hunger.  If you learn to embrace it, you can enhance you enjoyment of nourishment.  If you block out hunger, you risk starving.

Same with thirst; its positive intention: hydration.

Same with all your other feelings. Jealousy helps protect your property; fear helps with risk control; sadness  alerts you to loss; anger helps you maintain boundaries.  And so on.  No exceptions.

These days, people find it fashionable to block out  their feelings, say, with drugs or drama. this "medicinal" response to feelings affords temporary relief and de-motivates "pro-active" responses.

Our society as a whole frequently elects medicinal responses.  Colleges currently "protect" students from having to deal with uncomfortable feelings such as they might have from someone confronting their beliefs.

Universities even set up confrontation-free "safe zones." This de-motivates students from learning to cope with adversity and leaves them ill prepared to deal with the harsh realities of having to serving fries to customers with different political views..

You might consider taking your feelings about <bad feelings> to Tribe as an entry point.
July 20, 2018

New Tribe in Malmo Sweden


I read your books and I visit a Tribe meeting in Stockholm - now I like to start a local tribe in Malmoe, Sweden, and like to announce that if possible!

Thank you for starting a new Tribe.

You can see your Tribe on line at Resources / Start a Tribe / Malmo.
July 18, 2018

Seeing the Beauty in the Impossible

Dear Ed,

Thank you for showing us where to look to find our why!

Some geometrical thermodynamics to brighten your page and my day!

"It's centrifugal motion
It's perpetual bliss
It's that pivotal moment
It's, ah, impossible"

From Faith Hill's The Kiss

"May the world ever trade on its axes and we the trend followers see the beauty in a kiss."

Forever listening at your feet!
Thank you for listening at my feet.

I can try turning down the heat to see if I can get my toes to chatter.
July 18, 2018

Taking it Forward

Dear Sir

I have come across your website the Trading Tribe. I am a trader based in India and would like to learn more about trend following. Please guide how can we take this forward.


Thank you for raising this issue.

You might consider reading through FAQ to get a feeling for how the process works.
July 14, 2018

Important Question

Good Day Mr. Seykota,

As I been pouring over the archives of the Trading Tribe for the past few days, I couldn’t help but take advantage of the limited opportunity to ask you a few questions personally.

Before I start however, I must verbally express my gratitude for who you are, and what you do. This is no small feat (to attend to the volume of inquiries that you receive on almost a daily basis), and to give anyone the option to develop the self-confidence to speaking with one of the living legends themselves. I am truly grateful, thankful, and appreciate what it is that you do.

My most important question is (1) What was your inspiration for creating the Trading Tribe?

Given your background (musical, professional, and intellectual prowess) your “success” in life seems guaranteed from someone on the outside looking in.

I have read and even created several different “functions” of success throughout my short years of living. I know money isn’t a value for most professional traders so (2) What is your personal evidence criteria for success?
Thank you for raising this issue.

I gather that you hold the view that organizations somehow originate from some vivid vision or inspiration - and that a desire for success motivates the process.

I also gather you wish me to explain the origin of the Trading Tribe in these terms.

People who operate from the Control-Centric Model generally think in terms of "Success" and "Winning" and "Evidence Criteria."

People who operate from the Intimacy-Centric Model generally think in terms of feelings and connections.

In the Trading Tribe we practice operating from both models.  

Alpha males (and females) generally know all about the Control-Central Model - so the Tribe winds up as a practice area for people learning how to understand and apply the Intimacy-Centric Model

So there's this guy having a nice walk on the beach with his wife. He enjoys breathing the fresh salty air and the connection he shares with his wife. As he contemplates his good fortune in sharing his life's journey with her, tears of joy well up in his eyes and a lump appears in his throat.  He squeezes her hand a little more tightly.  She squeezes his hand right back.

This other guy comes up to them with a clip board and says, "Hey! I'm doing a study on successful relationships.  Now, obviously, since the purpose of marriage is procreation, I need to get some evidence criteria on how often you attempt procreation and I also need a success function, namely a statistically-verifiable estimate of your conception-to-coitus ratio."

The couple look at the clipboard guy and then at each other. The husband says, "Wow! Now that's a pretty interesting thing to encounter on the beach." The wife says, "Yeah, I guess. Kind of reminds me of getting tar on my foot." They both giggle and smile at clipboard guy. He smiles back at them and feels happy.

The Trading Tribe, in it's early days, affords its members a way to explore the emotional aspects of trading.  Lately, it affords opportunities for people such as yourself to raise questions about "evidence criteria."

I have no blaze-of-insight story about the origin of the Trading Tribe. I have no success metrics for the Trading Tribe, other than that which you can interpolate, according to your own criteria, by reading through FAQ.  I consider the Trading Tribe more like a walk on the beach with some friends, as we go along and notice who shows up to enhance the adventure.

Occasionally, I provide some finger-pointing suggestions (the kind that points one finger at you and three back at myself).

You might consider taking your feelings about <success> to Tribe as an entry point.

July 13, 2018


Ed, I hope you are doing well.

I share I am reading a book and a cross-connect just happens I wish to share.

Take golf. 

There is an internal focus where I might consciously hold the idea I have to shift my weight to my back foot, or keep my left arm straight, or many other physical actions of my body.

There is an external focus where I might consciously think I want the club to swing from the inside to the outside, or brush the ball and take a divot just past the ball.

Then there is an external result focus - I want the ball to fly in high, right to left, and land to the left of the flag.

Humans can’t hold many internal focus thoughts together at the same time.  An external result focus allows your brain to freely build whatever neural associations needed to produce the result.

The cross connect that just hit me - you are known for saying “Everyone gets what they want”.  This is the external result focus.  In trading, we might employ a combination of systematic rules, a combination of internal and external focus, such as “I will follow the system, so each day I will acquire prices and execute the system.” 

All this is designed to get the result the trader might want, but somewhere along the way, the external result focus will be tested dramatically.

So the “what do you want” is really important!

Similar Scope of Focus can be seen in simple cause-effect activity vs complex system behavior.

It has taken this engineer a long time to understand this aspect of human endeavors and of nature itself.  I am glad I have lived long enough to see this.


Thank you for sharing your cogitations and insights.
July 7, 2018

Tribe Meeting Report

Dear Sir,

With 4 members present, we begin the meeting with the drumming session & proceed to check in.

Check In

TM1(I) : I share how I am more focussed on work. I also share that I now get back in on a position after a whispaw instead of feeling frustrated or a sense of injustice, instead accepting whipsaws as a part of trading. I share how I feel discomfort at being touched. However, I am unwilling to take this to the Hotseat in this meeting.

TM2 : TM2 shares how he has created multiple versions of his systems while 1 being his default system, although he follows the default system religiously but simultaneously takes some trades from various versions of the system thus taking extra risk and over trading in his personal account. He also looks for some shorts if most of his signals are to go long & vice versa. He also laments how he is not able to fully prepare before he teaches in a class & elects to take these issues to the hotseat.

TM3 : TM3 shares how working with a physiotherapist for his right shoulder makes him more aware of the pain. He also feels hot but elects not to take the hotseat due to the shoulder injury. He shares that he attended a friends marriage ceremony in a different city & is happy to meet friends. He shares how he got nervous after an error in a model of his was found. A similar error had occurred before, and he felt nervous & defensive then, but he accepted the feelings & solved the error.

TM4 : He shares how his dating life has improved. TM4 shares that friend of his advised him(TM4) to date someone only if he feels love for that person.TM4 also shares how he enjoys coming home if the home is empty. He too elects to take his issues to the Hotseat.

Hotseat 1

TM4 takes the hotseat with TM3 as process manager.

PM probes the HS  brings up feelings of sadness that he felt when a friend was getting married & was unable to stay in touch. On meeting the said friend, HS feels that the friend has understood his anguish, and yet does not take an effort to connect more often. This intensifies TM4's anguish. He gets into his forms of curling his toes & pressing them into the floor. This evolves into swinging his head & swaying as he smiles. He feels like he has come across a web of some sort & elects to end the process.

During the HS checkout I share that HS was committed & kept at it. I feel that some of his forms were new. TM2 feels like the receiving was not as good as can have been. PM feels that the receiving was good, but that this was a short HS. He feels like we are breaking new ground with TM4. He also notes that HS has puffy eyes as if he is crying. HS shares that he feels good.

With this HS 1 ends.

Hotseat 2

TM2 takes the Hotseat with TM1(I) as the process manager.

TM2 describes his problem of selectively taking his trading signals. He begins to clap his hands & we encourage him to intensify the clapping. He starts tapping his feet and banging his palms on his knees. He starts shrugging and waving his arms in the air. I freeze him & he describes how he feels lazy & does not stay fit. He feels like he has to punish himself. He sits on the ground and stretches out. He looks satiated and elects to end the process.

During the HS checkout, TM4 shares that this was an intense process and saw a very committed HS. TM3 shared that I did not give HS room to breathe, but he respected the commitment shown by HS. TM3 also shares that the HS punishing himself might be conditioning which serves HS no purpose. I share that I was nervous as PM. I also congratulate TM2 for his commitment sharing that I felt scared of HS harming himself & of the part where he says he has to punish himself. HS shares that this was an intense process.

With this HS2 ends.

Meeting Checkout

During checkout I share that this is a good meeting, though feel hot, I did not take the Hotseat because I felt emotionally drained. I also recall on conditioning that I once sabotaged myself from a relationship because I felt I was not worthy, despite there being a clear interest from someone I had a crush on. TM2 shared that he enjoys the meetings. TM3 is happy that we are evolving and shares that we must now do more processes like the snapshot & the rocks process. We agree. TM4 is happy at the regularity of the meetings.

With this, the meeting ends.


Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting your meeting.
July 4, 2018

Wants to Know More

Hello, I'm interested in kowing more about the Trading Tribe and deeper in its knowledge.

Thanks so much for your attention


Thank you for raising this issue. You might start by reading through FAQ.
July 2, 2018

Wants to Start a Tribe


i am interested in starting a Trading Tribe in dubai. kindly advise me how do i do that.

Thank you for raising this issue.

You might consider:

- attending some Tribe Meetings to get the hang of how it goes.

- reading my book, The Trading Tribe with its update, TTP Extensions.

- attending a Workshop.

- submitting a TTID (Trading Tribe Information Document).

Other than that, just do it.
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